tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post7325786095491591713..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Christian Apostasy and Hebrews 6Ben Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-25587939486132823242008-11-01T22:11:00.000-07:002008-11-01T22:11:00.000-07:00You people also have to realize that many people w...You people also have to realize that many people walk around with an un-diagnosed mental illness. Like OCD, they may see one thing posted from an atheist and they run with it. Lets even forget the temporal principles applied in Hebrews as confirmed by the Amplified Bible, Blackwelder (New KJV) ISV. ASV, & NIV footnote.<BR/><BR/> John Wesley had the brains to part ways with Arminian on this issue he stated...<BR/><BR/>" This is a point which may exactly be determined, and that with the utmost certainty. If it be asked, “Do any real apostates find mercy from God? Do any that have `made shipwreck of faith and a good conscience,’ recover what they have lost? Do you know, have you seen, any instance of persons who found redemption in the blood of Jesus, and afterwards fell away, and yet were restored, — `renewed again to repentance?’” Yea, verily; and not one, or an hundred only, but, I am persuaded, several thousands. In every place where the arm of the Lord has been revealed, and many sinners converted to God, there are several found who “turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.” For a great part of these “it had been better never to have known the way of righteousness.” It only increases their damnation, seeing they die in their sins. But others there are who “look unto him they have pierced, and mourn,” refusing to be comforted. And, sooner or later, he surely lifts up the light of his countenance upon them; he strengthens the hands that hang down, and confirms the feeble knees; he teaches them again to say, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit rejoiceth in God my Saviour.” Innumerable are the instances of this kind, of those who had fallen, but now stand upright. Indeed, it is so far from being an uncommon thing for a believer to fall and be restored, that it is rather uncommon to find any believers who are not conscious of having been backsliders from God, in a higher or lower degree, and perhaps more than once, before they were established in faith.<BR/> Yet, Thirdly, several of these, after being thoroughly sensible of their fall, and deeply ashamed before God, have been again filled with his love, and not only perfected therein, but stablished, strengthened, and settled. They have received the blessing they had before with abundant increase. Nay, it is remarkable, that many who had fallen either from justifying or from sanctifying grace, and so deeply fallen that they could hardly be ranked among the servants of God, have been restored, (but seldom till they had been shaken, as it were, over the mouth of hell) and that very frequently in an instant, to all that they had lost. They have, at once, recovered both a consciousness of his favour, and the experience of the pure love of God. In one moment they received anew both remission of sins, and a lot among them that were sanctified." John Wesley<BR/><BR/> Even if anastaurountas (crucifying) and paradeigmatizontas (publicly ridiculing) were written in past tense participles, you have no idea who un-knowingly walks around with mental disorder. Most mental illnesses go undiagnosed.<BR/> Will God hold those with a mental illness countable for their sins even if the temporal principles didn't apply?<BR/> Don't judge people, you know not all the details sometime. LET GOD JUDGE!<BR/><BR/> But, as DR. Blackwelder (Greek New Testament. / New King James Version Translators of the New Testament) observes, <BR/>"the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed” <BR/><BR/>OCD symptom<BR/><BR/>"They tend to get caught up in the details and miss the bigger picture".<BR/><BR/>It would take one site like this one <BR/><BR/>http://nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm<BR/><BR/>for someone with diagnosed or un-diagnosed OCD to "get caught up in the details and miss the bigger picture".<BR/><BR/> If any Arminian caused someone with a mental illness (diagnosed or un-diagnosed) to commit suicide or prevent their return to the Lord, and not apply the last 2 verses of James, or came between Jesus seeking his lost sheep, it is you that should worry more than they!<BR/><BR/>"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck." Mark 9:42 <BR/><BR/>Dr. Hal Harless Ph.D. in Theology from Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary, <BR/> " Were then these individuals lost eternally? The book of Hebrews does not say that. Since they had returned to the sacrificial cult in order to avoid persecution, incurring divine chastisement should have given them pause (Heb 10:32-39). "Since they again crucify"--The Gk. verb is a present participle of continuous action. The Gk. verb translated "put Him to open shame" is also a present participle meaning "publicly disgrace, make an example of, hold up to contempt." The impossibility of renewing them to repentance locked them into immaturity. The source of that impossibility is their continuing to "again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame" by offering sacrifices. While they continue in this transgression, it is impossible both to bring them to repentance and for them to mature. However, if they stop this, there is hope that restoration is possible. "<BR/> Warren Wendel Wiersbe Northern Baptist Theological Seminary "You should note that the words “crucify” and “put” in Hebrews 6:6 are, in the Greek, present participles: “while they are crucifying ... and while they are putting Him to an open shame.” The writer did not say that these people could never be brought to repentance. He said that they could not be brought to repentance while they were treating Jesus Christ in such a shameful way. Once they stop disgracing Jesus Christ in this way, they can be brought to repentance and renew their fellowship with God." <BR/><BR/>AMPLIFIED BIBLE "[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace."<BR/><BR/> James Akin "Nevertheless, the passage does not pertain to the unforgivable sin. Many have misread the passage.... But this is simply not what the passage says. It does not say that if one tried to come back one would have to re-crucify Christ. It presents the re-crucifixion as a present reality. Just read the text: "because to their loss they are re-crucifying [present tense, active voice in both Greek and English] the Son of God and subjecting him to public disgrace." The text says that the apostates are re-crucifying Christ now, not that they would need to if they came back. Apostasy, contrary to some interpretations, is not the unforgivable sin."<BR/><BR/>ISV Bible "Our "short" answer is that the passage teaches that such return to repentance is impossible, provided the individual referred to remains in a state of crucifying to themselves the Son of God and exposing him to public ridicule. But once the person stops doing those two things, restoration to repentance then occurs."...<BR/>To sum up, the impossibility continues during the present state of crucifying and the present state of ridiculing. The grammar of the passage connotes that the main verb of the sentence (i.e., the verb "to be") and its descriptive aorist participles that modify it in verses 4-5 are all limited and defined by the present tense of the participles in verse six. That is, the actions described by the aorist participles occur during the time of the crucifying to themselves and the public ridiculing.... "After the person stops these two actions, at which time these behaviors become past tense activities as soon as they are ceased, the impossibility of renewal or restoration no longer applies, since they no longer are present tense activities relating to the word "impossible". Source ISV<BR/><BR/> It is the KJV that was wrong, the "IF" they fall away was never in the original Greek manuscripts, that is a proven fact.<BR/> Bible translators (like doctors) know more know than they did 400 hundred years ago.<BR/><BR/>"When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."<BR/><BR/>The related passages studied in it's immediate context confirms a continual present tense action.<BR/><BR/>But if [that same soil] persistently bears thorns and thistles, it is considered worthless and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.<BR/>Heb 6:8<BR/><BR/>"persistently"<BR/> The temporal continual present tense action applied in the immediate context confirms a continual present tense action. It agrees with these scriptures as well..<BR/><BR/>God is not the author of confusion, so scriptures must be in harmony with the rest of the bible.<BR/><BR/>Jeremiah 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God. <BR/><BR/>Hosea 14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.<BR/><BR/>2 Chronicles 30:6 So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. <BR/><BR/> Isaiah 31:6 Turn ye unto him from whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted. <BR/><BR/>Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: <BR/><BR/>2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. <BR/><BR/>Jeremiah 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. <BR/><BR/>Jeremiah 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. <BR/><BR/>Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.<BR/><BR/>Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. <BR/><BR/>[My] brethren, if anyone among you strays from the Truth and falls into error and another [person] brings him back [to God], <BR/>Let the [latter] one be sure that whoever turns a sinner from his evil course will save [that one's] soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins [[a]procure the pardon of the many sins committed by the convert]. <BR/>James 5:19-20 <BR/><BR/>"Remember then from what heights you have fallen. Repent (change the inner man to meet God's will) and do the works you did previously " Rev 2:5 <BR/><BR/>In addition to the Lost Sheep & the Prodical Son.<BR/><BR/>The Arminian based view would contrdict this. The temporal view does not.<BR/><BR/>Also, insulting the spirit and a return to animal sacrifice is bad, but it is not the same as the unforgivable sin, a different Greek work is used,<BR/><BR/>Strongs 987. blasphemeo (blas-fay-meh'-o) blaspheme, defame, revile, speak evil <BR/><BR/>As said in Hebrews...<BR/><BR/>Strongs 1796. enubrizo (en-oo-brid'-zo) Insult <BR/>synonym dictionary "To Insult". <BR/><BR/>God bless, be good to one another.PC_evangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219587824476760190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-20235934051720722842008-10-15T09:48:00.000-07:002008-10-15T09:48:00.000-07:00PC_Evangel,Thanks for your answer. I'm also convi...PC_Evangel,<BR/>Thanks for your answer. I'm also convinced these passages should be handled with the highest of care. I guess what I was asking is do you generally agree with Dr. Witherington's explaination?<BR/><BR/>THThomas Huskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09902750781706419779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-22465129146334940142008-10-15T07:14:00.000-07:002008-10-15T07:14:00.000-07:00I'm not going to comment anymore on the issue ...I'm not going to comment anymore on the issue after today, I just felt led to come here and mention that a girl committed suicide over this issue, they revived her and I don't know how she is doing now. I'll leave the translation of the ambiguities from Greek to English to those who do that for a living, like Dr. Blackwelder (New KJV) and the latest committee who looked at the "authentic" Greek manuscripts, the ISV. They did not revise a previous bible or get influenced by other Biblical translations, but translated it from it's original source as if they were translating the bible to English for the very first time.<BR/><BR/>"translated directly from the original languages of Scripture and derived from no other English translation. The ISV® was produced by Bible scholars who believe that "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16 ISV) The ISV® takes advantage not only of the most ancient manuscripts available, but also of the most recent archaeological discoveries. The translators of the ISV® have selected the English equivalent that most closely reflects the meaning of the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts."<BR/>http://isv.org/features.htm<BR/><BR/>The ISV Bible has Dr. David Black, Ph.D. <BR/>Educational Background<BR/><BR/>University of Basel, Switzerland (D. Theol. in New Testament, 1983) <BR/>Talbot School of Theology (M.Div. in New Testament, 1980) <BR/>Biola University (B.A. in Biblical Studies, 1975) <BR/>Jerusalem University College, Jerusalem, Israel (Additional Studies, 1985) <BR/><BR/>Professional Background <BR/><BR/>Professor of New Testament, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1998 - present <BR/><BR/>Scholar in Residence, ISV Foundation's International Research Center, 1996 - 1998 <BR/><BR/>Professor of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary (West Campus), 1988 - 1990 <BR/><BR/>Associate Professor of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary (West Campus), 1987 - 1988) <BR/><BR/>Academic Dean, Grace Graduate School, 1985 - 1987 <BR/><BR/>Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies, Biola University, 1984 - 1985 <BR/><BR/>Lecturer in Greek and Biblical Studies, Biola University, 1976 - 1984 <BR/><BR/>Adjunct Professorships (1992 - Present)<BR/>Talbot School of Theology <BR/>Simon Greenleaf University <BR/>Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary <BR/><BR/>Chong Shin Theological Seminary <BR/><BR/>Fuller Theological Seminary <BR/><BR/>Grace Bible Institute <BR/><BR/>Visiting Professorships <BR/><BR/>Grace Theological Seminary, Indiana <BR/><BR/>Freie Hochschule für Mission, Germany <BR/>Universidad Complutense, Spain <BR/><BR/>Chong Shin Theological Seminary, South Korea <BR/><BR/>Pusan Theological Seminary, South Korea <BR/><BR/>Kosin Theological Seminary, South Korea <BR/><BR/>Faith Theological Seminary, South Korea <BR/><BR/>American Theological Seminary, New York City <BR/><BR/>Fuller Theological Seminary, Seattle <BR/><BR/>Society of Biblical Literature <BR/>Evangelical Theological Society <BR/><BR/>(Past President, Far West Region) <BR/>Editorial Board, Filologia <BR/><BR/>Neotestamentaria (Journal of New Testament Philology), Cordoba, Spain <BR/><BR/>Publications (abridged listing)<BR/><BR/>The Myth of Adolescence (Yorba Linda: Davidson Press, 1999) <BR/><BR/>Using New Testament Greek in Ministry: A Practical Guide for Students and Pastors (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1993) <BR/><BR/>Learn to Read New Testament Greek (Nashville: Broadman & Holman, 1994) <BR/><BR/>Learn to Read New Testament Greek: Expanded Edition (Nashville: Broadman & Holman, 1994) <BR/><BR/>Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek: Revised Edition (Grad Rapids: Baker, 1995) <BR/><BR/>http://isv.org/about_us/bios/drblack.htm<BR/><BR/>Their (ISV) new testament verse on Heb 6:6 agrees with Dr. Blackwelder from the New KJV<BR/>"the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed” Dr. Blackwelder<BR/><BR/>"and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify to themselves the Son of God and to expose him to public ridicule"<BR/>Heb 6:6 Source ISV<BR/><BR/>Now my pastor is smart and all, but it is not his expertise to render ambiguities from the original Greek manuscripts. <BR/>What I'm saying in a loving way, few are called to be chiefs, the rest of us have got to be Indians. We all love the Lord and although our intentions are good, some don't realize they made a girl commit suicide. Jesus said I need laborers! Witness the word of Jesus, bring people into the kingdom.<BR/>The issue here was animal sacrifice for repentance, if someone falls away from God, they can be brought back to God, James 5:19-20. <BR/>And I am not to argue the point if these people using goats & bulls for repentance were going to go to hell if they did not return to the one time sacrifice Jesus provided. I'll let God judge their souls, that's his job. I didn't come here to pick a side on the OSAS issue, and I still won't.<BR/>To answer your question on Heb 10, I will quote a small passage from the book "The Conclusion of the New Testament<BR/>By Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry"<BR/>"We should not misinterpret Hebrews 10:26, thinking that if we sin willfully after being saved our sins cannot be forgiven because there is no more sacrifice for sin. The willful sin mentioned in this verse is forsaking the church and shrinking back to the old covenant after knowing that God had annulled it and established a new one."<BR/><BR/>My advice is when it comes to serious issues, contact those who are well trained to be hired by Biblical committees to render ambiguities from the "authentic" Greek manuscripts to English before causing someone to commit suicide.<BR/>God bless, bring people into the kingdom and talk about the love and redeeming power of the blood of Jesus.PC_evangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219587824476760190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-62107890964915099952008-10-14T18:44:00.000-07:002008-10-14T18:44:00.000-07:00PC_Evangel,Do you think Heb 6:4 and Heb 10:26 are ...PC_Evangel,<BR/>Do you think Heb 6:4 and Heb 10:26 are talking about similar situations, or does their context separate them (i.e. different types of sinning)? Thanks.Thomas Huskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09902750781706419779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-81000678381694918552008-10-12T12:42:00.000-07:002008-10-12T12:42:00.000-07:00Small correction, I meant to say there was NO need...Small correction, I meant to say there was NO need to violate the golden rule of interpretation in this verse and go outside of the book of Hebrews. Forgot to type the word no.PC_evangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219587824476760190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-15542998435888375052008-10-12T07:44:00.000-07:002008-10-12T07:44:00.000-07:00The impossibility mentioned here is to restore rep...The impossibility mentioned here is to restore repentance. This verse has been the target for those who believe in once saved, always saved, and those who believe the opposite.<BR/> This blog pops up a lot when apostates seek comfort after reading terrible pages from Arminian based websites on the passage.<BR/>My pastor told me that a girl committed suicide and they revived her in the ambulance, over this passage. She became a Wiccan and left the church and thought she couldn't return to Jesus from reading some of those websites. So be careful you don't become a stumbling block for anyone.<BR/> Remember the golden rule of interpretation,<BR/>"When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, <BR/>indicate clearly otherwise."<BR/> The context here, is a return to animal sacrifices and the law for the remission of sins. There is no need to go outside of the context of Hebrews because the word impossible explains itself in the same book. Everyone should see this book was explaining the difference between the old Jewish system and the one time sacrifice offered by Christ. When Christians sin, their restoration for the remission of that sin was covered by the blood of Christ, the one time sacrifice explained in the same book. So when you sin, the confession to Jesus restores you to repentance.<BR/> There is a new system in place. True repentance will result in true restoration, the obsolete system of bulls and goats was not true repentance, so restoration in that manner would not be valid.<BR/> Mr. Marvin Rosenthal, a Jewish Christian, stated something to the effect that if a person had never heard of Jesus, but was living rightfully under the law the day before Christ resurrection, would such a person be doomed to hell if one died a day or two after the resurrection never hearing about the gospel of Jesus? Rosenthal stated something to the effect that God handled both economies for 40 years so the gospel could be preached to those that never heard of him. The name Jesus, was not a household name at that time. Temple sacrifices continued for around 40 years until God had felt it was time for the destruction of the temple.<BR/>This is why verse 6 was addressed to those who were already (past tense) bought by the blood of the new covenant, those WHO KNEW BETTER, they had already given their life to Christ, and under persecution of losing their jobs and property, converted back to the animal sacrifices for the remission of sins under the pressure of the Judizers.<BR/> By Christians going back into the temple and killing a goat or bull, they were publicly displaying that the blood of Christ was as common as that of an animal, (Heb 10:29) and some who totally returned to that system were agreeing of what the Jews did in crucifying Christ. This is why the term "crucify" is used in verse 6. There was need to violate the golden rule of interpretation in this verse and go outside of the book of Hebrews. The impossibility was that the blood of bulls and goats had no power to restore sins, (repentance from dead works Heb 6:1). See the impossibility explained in the same book within it's context, "for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" Heb 10:4 "Day after day every priest stands and repeatedly offers the same sacrifices that can never take away sins" Heb 10:11 (repentance from dead works Heb 6:1).<BR/> In it's context, the falling away in Hebrews meant to fall back into the rituals of the law and animal sacrifice, and a Christian's sin would not be restored by God if they sought repentance by falling back into the old system. You can seek repentance from your computer screen, but you will not be restored because it does not have the power to do so, neither did the blood of animals (Heb 10:4). The old system of animal sacrifice was rendered obsolete once Christians were bought by the blood of our Lord Jesus!<BR/>Also the author of Hebrews switches to present tense participles in verse 6:6 to explain what they were doing, which made restoration impossible, anastaurountas (crucifying) and paradeigmatizontas (publicly ridiculing). If a person stops it, and those actions become past tense, then the impossibility for restoration no longer applies, because it would no longer be a present tense activity relating to the word impossible. <BR/> This is why 6:8 says it is in danger or near to being cursed. <BR/> As Dr. Blackwelder (one of the translators for the New King James Version) stated in regard to Heb. 6:6, the temporal participles imply that “if persons guilty of such sin will cease it, and repent, they can be reclaimed”.PC_evangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16219587824476760190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-51517036166349302102008-03-16T17:48:00.000-07:002008-03-16T17:48:00.000-07:00Dr Witherington,I look forward to this book. I con...Dr Witherington,<BR/><BR/>I look forward to this book. I consider myself a redeemed apostate. I first trusted in the Lord Jesus at the age of 15 in 1962 under the preaching of a devout Arminian father. Though I was never an outstanding disiple, my faith in the Savior was sincere.<BR/><BR/> However, in 1982 after over a decade of increasing doubt, depression, guilt, and despair, I gave up my efforts to retain whatever was left of my faith in the Lord Jesus and privately but consciously and purposely renounced belief in him and God. <BR/><BR/>I look back on that Sunday morning now only with horror. I felt I was only confirming and accepting a total loss of faith that had already long occurred, but after my conscious renunciation I had the surprising sense that a door had closed, almost audibly, behind me, and that I had entered a small dark space in which I was utterly alone.<BR/><BR/>I lived the next fourteen years in a state of near total nihilism, never dreaming that my faith would be resurrected. However, in 1996, tired of the emptiness of unbelief, I began to question my doubts and to rethink the main themes of the Faith. During the next year I came to feel that I could assent in good conscience to the main tenets of the faith, I prayed for forgiveness, and felt the Savior's presence again. On Palm Sunday 1997 joined an evangelical church, again in good conscience.<BR/><BR/>Hebrew 6 has, of course, posed problems for me, and still does. In 1996 I found encouragement to believe that I could be restored in Robert Shank's "Life in the Son". A few years later, however, I read "Four Views on Eternal Security" and learned more about the range of evangelical opinion about apostasy. Most Calvinists, I think, hold that real apostasy is impossible for one who is truly elect. So I assume they would find my story very dubious. <BR/><BR/>The only encouragement I have found from Calvinism is a passage at the beginning of Hooker's "Laws..." in which he suggests that a Christian can be so overwhelmed with doubts that he may judge himself an apostate when he is not. Perhaps that was so with me. God only knows.<BR/><BR/>I do not ask the question whether I fell from grace. How could I know that? And how could one live believing that? All I can do is trust and hope in God's grace, trust that the Savior's parable of the Prodigal Son offers hope even for apostates, and trust in the promise that no one can take a believer out of His hands.<BR/><BR/>I am troubled, however, about my relationship to my church, or any church. I have requested that my membership be removed from the Baptist church I joined. One reason, though not the conclusive one, is that I feel I should do so out of respect for the beliefs of the numerous Calvinists in the congregation.<BR/><BR/>So I look forward to your book. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Scribascribahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06904357189940700282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-18066302973730457732008-02-28T01:14:00.000-08:002008-02-28T01:14:00.000-08:00Mr. Witherington,A lot of theologians (like here) ...Mr. Witherington,<BR/>A lot of theologians (like <A HREF="http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/papers/ets/2004/Harless2004/Harless2004.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>) argue that the Greek word for "fall away" does not translate directly into the same as the word for apostasy, but instead it means "while falling aside", or at the worst "a serious fall into transgression". Given the context in which the word falls in Hebrews 6, I would have to disagree with those people because of the severity of it described a few sentences later (re-crucifying Christ, etc.) Do you see any weight behind they're argument that it doesn't mean a total falling away? Thanks.<BR/><BR/>THThomas Huskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09902750781706419779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-6176810573494663932008-02-24T04:38:00.000-08:002008-02-24T04:38:00.000-08:00This series of verses has personally caused me gre...This series of verses has personally caused me great anguish over the last couple of years due to a period of personal doubt in which I called myself an agnostic at one point. Due to the fact that 1 Timothy 1:20 and James 5:19 seem to indicate that apostates are not irretrievable, I have concluded that the so-called "temporal" interpretation is best. And certainly best from my perspective.Dan Holmeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17714905932973229494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-76296500973049260202008-02-23T03:29:00.000-08:002008-02-23T03:29:00.000-08:00Thanks Mr. Witherington, you are a great help inde...Thanks Mr. Witherington, you are a great help indeed on this subject. Could you please recommend some more books (or artcles) on this subject (apostasy, warning passages)? God Bless.Thomas Huskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09902750781706419779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-41346233074613666672008-02-19T11:57:00.000-08:002008-02-19T11:57:00.000-08:00Russ:You are certainly entitled to your opinion, h...Russ:<BR/><BR/>You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however it could have been expressed in a more loving and succinct matter. <BR/><BR/>I am afraid you will need to repent of the tone of this message, and the suggestion as well that Evangelical Arminians are serving up an anti-God message. <BR/><BR/>It is also arrogant to suggest that it is an issue of maturation as you have 'progressed' from an more Arminian to a more Calvinistic point of view. And what are we to think of those who on more detailed study of the Bible have gone in the exactly opposite direction-- did they become less mature? I think not.<BR/><BR/>Have you even read the works of Wesley or Richard Watson or Joseph Fletcher? I suspect you don't really know much about their actual views of things. They offer a thelogy of grace that is involved in salvation from start to finish. <BR/><BR/>I suggest as well that you read Roger Olson's fine book on Arminianism to get a better picture on the actual differences between two orthodox groups of Christians who are Evangelical Protestants. <BR/><BR/>It is interesting to me, who has read the works of Calvin, Owens, Edwards, Berkhof, Berkower, both Hodges, Warfield and so on and did attend a Reformed seminary and has respect for that tradition, that I am happy to admit I learned a lot from them, but when I actually turned to doing the detailed exegesis of all the NT, while their theological system was certainly logical and coherent, unfortunately it did not match up with what the actual text of the NT was teaching on ever so many points, not the least of which is what it teaches when it warns genuine Christians about apostasy. <BR/><BR/>I would recommend you take some time off from fulminating, and read I.H. Marshall's classic little volume entitled 'Kept by the Power of God' which deals with all the perseverance and apostasy texts in detail. What you will discover is that Owens and Calvin and Edwards, God bless 'em, missed a lot, and sometimes were guilty of eisegesis as well, a mistake I am sure we all have made at some time in the attempt to try and appear consistent in our theology. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-67358996389162420862008-02-19T05:23:00.000-08:002008-02-19T05:23:00.000-08:00Many words don't mean truth, more likely much sin,...Many words don't mean truth, more likely much sin, as Prov 10:19 says, a big reason for the shallowness of web "christianity" (if the present atomized "web christianity" isn't an oxymoron versus God's Heb.10:25 picture of the Church. <BR/><BR/>Contra Witherington and Wesley, and their countless antiBiblical synergistic egoistic delusional errors, castles on air with not one verse of Scripture to support them, there is of course no possibility of a true Christian apostatizing, as 1 John 2:19 and all of Romans and many other passages make clear, explicated voluminously by so many of the Puritans (such as John Owen and Jonathan Edwards, to name but two, and ably demonstrated at www.monergism.com and www.desiringGod.org for those who desire God more than men, unusual for synergists, as Ben's bizarre and irrational antiBiblical insistence (sadly almost universal today) on God idolatrously glorifying man and not Himself as supremely worthy), whom synergists can't handle honestly but need not worry about today's illiterates ever reading to expose their bluff, stupidity, vacuity, and vanity. As C.S. Lewis said about the assured results of modern criticism, the only reason the results are so "assured" is that the original authors are dead and so can't blow (=refute) the gaffe (=error). <BR/><BR/>As John Piper has pointed out on the passage in preaching through the book (www.desiringGod.org), contrary to the usual eisegetical delusions of synergists, for whom the ego is God, and God is belittled, contrary to the pillar of Romans 9:15 that tells us God is sovereign and decides all (Prov 16:33), Hebrews 6 refers to two DIFFERENT soils, NOT one soil that changes itself; sadly I myself taught Ben's error many years ago before I matured, and was rightly ejected from the house I shared with Christian brothers for it as I wish would happen to wake up those following Ben's error to make them take the Christian faith versus mere ego seriously. <BR/><BR/>Ben would have saved himself a lot of wasted time and effort typical for synergists trying to use special knowledge like "rhetorical signals" and what not, going all over the map with extraBiblical legerdemain vainly trying to escape the simple meaning of the Sacred text, and thus failing to notice the small but essential point that overthrows these vast (and as vain as vast, in both senses of the word) synergist speculations with a bogus antiBiblical view of grace that has been so catastrophic in destroying God's Church, especially but not only in the west) by substituting for His true Gospel of grace, Wesley's and Finney's ultimately humanistic chicanery of a pseudo-gospel of works and ego (I (appropriately the middle letter of sin) have the final say, not God, in who is elect, contradicted by Rom 9:15) that today's tragically stupid and worldly Biblically illiterate couch potato devils'/idiots' box & screen imbibers are all too happy to embrace as James 4 adulteress-idolatresses. God save us, for only His grace in sending conviction and revival to His Church that has lost her way (at least in the west), gleefully headed like lemmings for certain destruction but for His amazing grace.Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17216069619358775317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-84635826047786299892008-02-17T19:40:00.000-08:002008-02-17T19:40:00.000-08:00Hi Bob:First, sorry if I misunderstood who you tho...Hi Bob:<BR/>First, sorry if I misunderstood who you thought the audience was. Secondly, the most most natural way to take the Greek phrase 'those from Italy' as most commentators do , is not to read it to mean 'those in Italy' but rather Italians who are away from home (hence the word 'from') and are sending greetings back to Rome of course. I am from North Carolina and I don't refer to being 'from North Carolina' when I am there. I do so when I am somewhere else. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-30900474192775194792008-02-17T19:19:00.000-08:002008-02-17T19:19:00.000-08:00One last thing - if as you say the letter were wri...One last thing - if as you say the letter were written to Jews in the Italian penninsula, why would the writer of Hebrews tell them in Hebrews 13:24 "Those from Italy greet you."<BR/><BR/>Doesn't it seem more likely that the letter was written from Rome, not to Rome?Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10120554561277504589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-22855653225226118182008-02-17T19:10:00.000-08:002008-02-17T19:10:00.000-08:00I had to reread my comment to figure out how you m...I had to reread my comment to figure out how you might get the impression that I believe the Epistle to the Hebrews was written to non-Christians. I'm stumped.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10120554561277504589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-14455539124187466582008-02-16T04:54:00.000-08:002008-02-16T04:54:00.000-08:00Hi Bob:There are several major problems with your ...Hi Bob:<BR/><BR/>There are several major problems with your post. <BR/><BR/>The Book of Hebrews certainly was not written to non-Christian Jews, and further it was not written to Jews in Jerusalem, though you are right it was written prior to the fall of the temple. <BR/><BR/>In regard to the first point, throughout the book of Hebrews our author not only assumes the audience are Jewish Christians, he bases his whole argument on that, and on the dangers and problems of their going back to Judaism and abandoning Christ. <BR/><BR/>This is what Heb. 2 clearly tells us as does Heb. 6. As to the second point, Heb. 13 makes rather clear that the audience is in Rome, not in Jerusalem.<BR/><BR/>Thirdly, the salvation in question was certainly not the corporate salvation of Jews as a nation. This is absolutely ruled out by the character of the argument--- for example the argument about the obsolescence of the whole Levitical system and the need for all persons to embrace Christ and be saved. <BR/><BR/>Sorry, but there are no major scholars or commentaries that would agree with you on either the first or third of these points, and hardly any that would agree on the Jerusalem locale either. <BR/><BR/>The reference to coming outside the tent in Heb. 13 is a reference to leaving the Mosaic religion behind, which has been one of the main points of the entire discourse. It's not about leaving Jerusalem behind.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-77298531429971101562008-02-15T21:19:00.000-08:002008-02-15T21:19:00.000-08:00As the starting point for interpreting the Book of...As the starting point for interpreting the Book of Hebrews, we must remember that it was written to ... <I>the Hebrews</I>. That is, to <I>the Jews</I> on the eve of the destruction of Jerusalem. The "salvation" that was in jeopardy for the Church at Jerusalem was their salvation as a nation, not their eternal life.<BR/><BR/>Because these Jewish Christians (i.e., Jewish believers in Jesus as the promised Messiah) were "again crucifying to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame" (Heb 6:6) by blending with the culture and continuing to bring their lambs for sacrifice (rather than trusting solely in the sacrifice of God's Lamb), they were in danger of being set aside as God's ambassadors to the world -- as indeed they were just a few years after the epistle was penned. I would further argue (as Paul does in Romans 11:1) that Israel has merely been set aside TEMPORARILY.<BR/><BR/>But the point remains: When the Roman army besieged Jerusalem on the eve of Passover in A.D. 70, there was no divine deliverance (no salvation) for the estimated one-million Jews who had gathered to celebrate that last Passover. Never since has Israel put the sacrificial knife to the neck a Passover lamb.<BR/><BR/>As application to us today: We who have no need to fear the loss of our "salvation" (our eternal life), do indeed need to be afraid of losing our "salvation" (our calling as God's ambassadors). After all, if we aren't fit for God's service, then does really it matter if we have eternal life or not?Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10120554561277504589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1992693564072724122008-02-15T18:48:00.001-08:002008-02-15T18:48:00.001-08:00Kyle I think there is something to what you are sa...Kyle I think there is something to what you are saying. You might want to have a look at John Wesley's famous sermon on this subject entitled 'The Wilderness State'<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-46242717342269264832008-02-15T18:48:00.000-08:002008-02-15T18:48:00.000-08:00Whoops - by "impossibility of apostasy" I meant th...Whoops - by "impossibility of apostasy" I meant the impossibility of being restored after apostasy was committed.<BR/><BR/>Also, one could perhaps allign it with the unpardonable sin against the Spirit (which is called the Spirit of grace in Hebrews), which this text shows us can even be done by a Christian.Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484003949277428168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-56100918605808927952008-02-15T18:36:00.000-08:002008-02-15T18:36:00.000-08:00Dr. Witherington -Do you think the impossibility o...Dr. Witherington -<BR/><BR/>Do you think the impossibility of apostasy is more with the fact that the person decisively rejects the only thing by which he can be saved - the sacrifice for sins, Jesus? <BR/><BR/>This seems to be consonant with the substantiation of the word "impossible," which says that it's impossible "since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." And it goes on to say that the reason it's burnt is because of it's worthless condition (thornes and thistles).<BR/><BR/>The the impossibility is not an unwillingness on God's part to redeem (I don't think Jesus would ever turn a truly repentant soul away), but simply in the fact that the individual has irrevocably and decisively rejected the only means whereby he can be saved - as you say, it's a "soul destroying" act. This also fits in with Peter's description of apostasy resulting in a state "worse" than the first.Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484003949277428168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-11970964680492428122008-02-15T10:18:00.000-08:002008-02-15T10:18:00.000-08:00There are two points I'd like to make. From the L...There are two points I'd like to make. <BR/><BR/>From the Lutheran perspective, I am reminded that Luther found Heb. 6,4 and following a "harter Knochen" a "tough bone" to chew. He found it un-evangelical. Based on this "kerygmatic chriticism" and the fact that the author of Hebrews is not confirmed, made him occasionally question the level of authority of the letter Hebrew's all together.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, in context, we might think about the tough problem the church faced trying to decide if those who did not submit to the suffering of the persecutions still belonged to the church. This caused deep divisions later on. However, after much difficulty, the church, based on the gospel, did receive these people again.<BR/><BR/>I think when we look at life, we know both kinds of people, those who reject with all vehemence and remain there, and those who may drift away, but come back. In our own lives, too, we know we are not committed equally strong every day. By God's grace he brings us and keeps us in the church.<BR/>BrigitteBrigittehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259491144770243688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-75824339996838566302008-02-15T04:16:00.000-08:002008-02-15T04:16:00.000-08:00Alexlsandra:This is an excellent question, and it ...Alexlsandra:<BR/><BR/>This is an excellent question, and it is quite impossible to answer on the basis of what little you have said about this person. But consider these two possibilities: 1) the first go around the person was not in fact a Christian, did not love the Lord with all their heart etc. They were in a state much like the demons described in the Gospels-- who knew very well who Jesus was and did not dispute it, but this truth had not transformed their lives and behavior, as evidence by this person going AWOL. Mental assent to the Gospel is not the same as being saved. The issue is had they trusted and adhered to, and been transformed by and lived on the basis of that truth? 2) the very fact that this person now has a heart for God, and the other things you mentioned, is evidence that they did not commit apostasy in the first place which is a soul destroying act. <BR/><BR/>Hope this helps.<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-67678040062500738332008-02-14T20:50:00.000-08:002008-02-14T20:50:00.000-08:00Just to clarify, is the article saying that Christ...Just to clarify, is the article saying that Christians who reject their faith can never return? I personally know of a case when a person rejected his faith, wanting to live a life style not compatable with the Gospel. This person actually said they reject Jesus. But only a short time later they came back, and now, years later, he is still hungry for the things of God. According to the Hebrews verses, does God take back such a one? Could it be possible for a person to desire Christ, but for God to not truely forgive them? I'm confused.Aleksandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02378930635094777233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-76395956208464246942008-02-14T18:52:00.000-08:002008-02-14T18:52:00.000-08:00Hi Steve: Let's be clear that the author is not t...Hi Steve: Let's be clear that the author is not talking about accidentally losing something. He is talking about a deliberate rebellion of such hideous proportions and vehemence that it can be characterized as 'trampling the Son of God (and his death) underfoot. In other words this is willful, knowing, deliberate, and in no way could be called 'losing' anything. It could be called 'throwing away' or repudiating one's salvation, and it is the ugliest sin of all. <BR/><BR/>Bw3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-11640712935002591652008-02-14T14:56:00.000-08:002008-02-14T14:56:00.000-08:00This has always been a passage that I have been in...This has always been a passage that I have been interested in. I did a paper on it in seminary and I was disturbed that one commentary stated that it seems to be saying that Christians can lose their salvation, but since that is impossible it must mean something else. Although we all do it at same level, we must be careful in making the Bible fit our own theology.SJBedardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02858451603363183786noreply@blogger.com