tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post6578128691882110834..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: The Jesus Tomb Redux--the Jerusalem ConferenceBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-57738804656167957632008-02-06T08:42:00.000-08:002008-02-06T08:42:00.000-08:00"He surely knows better than to misrepresent the v..."He surely knows better than to misrepresent the view of resurrection found in both early Judaism and early Christianity in this manner. As Tom Wright demonstrated at great length in his landmark study on 'Resurrection and the Son of God' (Fortress Press), resurrection everywhere refers to something that happens to and involves a physical, not some ethereal spiritual body. Paul in 1 Cor. 15 does not in fact refer to a 'spiritual body'. What 'pneumatikon soma' means is a body totally empowered by the Spirit, not a body made out of spiritual material (an idea that would have been a non sequitur or oxymoron-- 'spirit refers to something non-material, and so not a material component or physical substance of a body). The term Spirit, in the phrase 'life-giving Spirit' is set in contrast to the phrase about Adam as a 'living being' (i.e. with physical breath). Thus in this phrase Spirit, has the same meaning as it does in John 4 where Jesus refers to God as Spirit (i.e. a divine being). The point of the contrast is to make clear that while Adam had physical existence and so was alive as a human being, Jesus as the risen Lord has the ability to do what only God the Spirit can do-- namely give life. None of the discussion in 1 Cor. 15 has anything to do with a 'spiritual (i.e. non-material) resurrection body'. Note that there is plenty of talk in the ancient world about human spirits or souls, or even animal spirits, but in neither case are either viewed as a 'material' or physically substantive part of a creature's body. Thus when Jesus says 'into thy hands I commend my spirit', he is referring to his personality or the non-material part of who he is."<BR/><BR/>So many questions. So many questions. So, at the resurrection, are our bodies non-material? If we hold to a restoration-redemption (not using theological language here) idea, that Christ, as the second Adam, has put/is putting mankind back into his purposed state, originially seen in the Garden of Eden, wouldn't that mean a physical sense? Or, if Paul meant non-material at all, why use body at all? Couldn't he stop at Spirit?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00010921001006698533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-43982079090199935632008-01-29T08:16:00.000-08:002008-01-29T08:16:00.000-08:00I am saddened by this response Paul. Of course you...I am saddened by this response Paul. Of course you are right that sometimes Christians are as irrational as anyone, and you are also right that all too often Christians are a bad advertisement for their own faith. I imagine however that if you have ever had children in rebellion against you and your values, you can understand how God must feel when his people misrepresent God. This is not reflection on God, just on human sin.<BR/><BR/>I have to say that after 30 years of historical work, I am more confident rather than less that the historical evidence supports the witness of the NT itself.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-59423446461726271522008-01-29T08:00:00.000-08:002008-01-29T08:00:00.000-08:00Ben,Incidentally, I've been a subscriber to BAR an...Ben,<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, I've been a subscriber to BAR and the former BR for many years and always enjoyed your columns.<BR/><BR/>It has always driven me crazy to sit in Sunday School classes and listen to people ridicule those of other beliefs while not understanding that what they believe is not much less irrational. Those crazy Muslims/Jews/Hindus, how can they believe X? <BR/><BR/>Osama bin Laden thinks God tells him to kill people? Outrageous. (So what about Jericho? Well, that's different, God really wanted those people dead.) <BR/><BR/>Can you imagine that pagans believed Gods came to earth? Insane! (How different is that really from the virgin birth and Trinity?)<BR/><BR/>I'll say this about your response. I used to have your confidence that the historical evidence supported the facts behind Christianity. I'm not so sure any more. <BR/><BR/>Not only for reasons of historical study, but it seems to me that Christianity produces in most people whatever the opposite is of the fruit of the spirit.paulfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16727202517182571557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-9780267830585158222008-01-29T04:28:00.000-08:002008-01-29T04:28:00.000-08:00Paul:Thanks for this. You seem to be assuming that...Paul:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for this. You seem to be assuming that historians cannot take into account either the paranormal or supernatural and still be good historians. This of course presupposes that the post-Enlightenment world view of many is the correct view of reality, and that to do history properly, one must assume such a world view. <BR/><BR/>In my view this is nonsense, and in fact works especially poorly in a post-modern situation as an assumption. <BR/><BR/>There are critical historians who do take account of the paranormal and supernatural as cause agents in history, and there are also those who do not, but the former are no less good historians than the latter. <BR/><BR/>Why not? Because history is all about evidence, factual evidence, the testimony of eyewitnesses and so on. And we have as much factual evidence and testimony about, say, the resurrection of Jesus as about, say,the death of Julius Caesar. <BR/><BR/>Unless, you are simply going to 'presuppose' what today we call 'miracles' don't happen (and therefore reports of them can't be factual), then you can't rule out such evidence and testimony, you have to critically sift it. <BR/><BR/>The most important thing to say about this is that 'assuming' the resurrection of Jesus didn't happen because it 'couldn't' happen, is a faith assumption. Nothing more and nothing less. It is a faith assumption about the nature of reality. <BR/><BR/>The question then becomes--- who is more open minded? The person who allows for the possibility of miracles and weighs the evidence carefully, or the person who rules it out in advance, and says, "well that's just not good historical investigation"? I would think it is the former person who is the better critical scholar, rather than the latter. <BR/><BR/>Christianity is a religion based on history and the evaluation of historical evidence. Christian faith is not simply a matter of believing without, or in spite of, historical evidence. Christian Faith, is a trusting that the evidence we have is sufficient to support a certain belief. It is not blind faith, and should not be distinguished from any and all sorts of historical investigation. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-83703857447804465762008-01-28T18:41:00.000-08:002008-01-28T18:41:00.000-08:00Gosh, ben, where did I say I believed the Talipot ...Gosh, ben, where did I say I believed the Talipot tomb theory? I have no idea. <BR/><BR/>I just find it ironic you mock people for investigating something that you say lacks evidence -- ON HISTORICAL GROUNDS, NO LESS -- while espousing a set of beliefs that is impossible by any historical standard.<BR/><BR/>I have no problem with what you believe, just think you should recognize the double standard and maybe be a little bit more humble.<BR/><BR/>paulfTalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11380591042937286155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-29970981690381043862008-01-28T17:17:00.000-08:002008-01-28T17:17:00.000-08:00Well Paul clearly your comments demonstrate you ha...Well Paul clearly your comments demonstrate you have greater ability to believe things without hard evidence than I! <BR/><BR/>For 2,000 years the greatest minds of the Western world and elsewhere have applied themselves to the study of Jesus and his life. And the majority of the best historians, philosophers, and even scientists, until recently, all recognized that there are good, indeed some would say compelling reasons to believe in these specific things accredited to the life of Jesus as well grounded in fact and reality. <BR/><BR/>I am afraid that those who have lined up in favor of the Talpiot tomb theory couldn't hold a candle to many of these folks in an open debate where all the evidence was laid out. <BR/><BR/>So, come on Paul, why in the world would you believe something with as flimsy a support as the Talpiot tomb theory? I don't know a single serious historian, even the atheistic ones, who accepts this theory on its face or on the basis of the evidence thus far martialed. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-11038786245425402582008-01-28T12:04:00.000-08:002008-01-28T12:04:00.000-08:00Ben, your statement, "Any historian worth his salt...Ben, your statement, "Any historian worth his salt will tell you that mere possibilities, while worth exploring, do not become probabilities by stringing together flawed evidence on hyped up by docu-dramas" is a little strange.<BR/><BR/>C'mon, how can you talk about looking at things as a historian while saying that Jesus was born of a virgin who was impregnanted by a ghost (who wasn't even the father!) and later rose from the dead?<BR/><BR/>There is an infinite times more evidence of Jesus being in the Talipot tomb -- even if you believe he is not -- than there is for Christian beliefs, including the resurrection.<BR/><BR/>You are mocking those who are open to something improbable while clinging to the belief in the impossible (historically speaking). Take the beam out of your own eye, man.paulfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16727202517182571557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-77047200648041614562008-01-26T04:09:00.000-08:002008-01-26T04:09:00.000-08:00Wailing and gnashing, a just desertFor long lives ...Wailing and gnashing, a just desert<BR/>For long lives spent inflicting hurt.<BR/>But for the toothless what’s beneath?<BR/>The answer is, of course, new teeth!Terry Hamblinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06346629921055055879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-65159069098803690792008-01-23T12:32:00.000-08:002008-01-23T12:32:00.000-08:00Can you recommend a book or article on biblical an...Can you recommend a book or article on biblical anthropology? I have struggled with the various issues around the human constitution debate.Andy Miller IIIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04663558701681512586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-62796971647819237682008-01-23T07:14:00.000-08:002008-01-23T07:14:00.000-08:00The Secret of the Talpiot Tomb is published by Bro...<I>The Secret of the Talpiot Tomb</I> is published by Broadman & Holman, not Hendrickson.<BR/><BR/>B&H has also published <I>Buried Hope or Risen Savior: The Search for the Jesus Tomb</I>, edited by Charles Quarles, with contributions by Craig Evans, Richard Bauckham, Gary Habermas, Darrell Bock, and others.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00222080126313827930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-69903276379009819552008-01-22T18:51:00.000-08:002008-01-22T18:51:00.000-08:00I received today a fine little study, complete wit...I received today a fine little study, complete with detailed charts and pictures entitled The Secret of the Talpiot Tomb by Gary Habermas (published by Hendrickson). It is a good thorough piece of work with full citations and evidence. I commend it to you as a careful scholarly analysis. <BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-7777511283359636642008-01-21T14:28:00.000-08:002008-01-21T14:28:00.000-08:00Not quite Stephen. The human spirit or an animal s...Not quite Stephen. The human spirit or an animal spirit was indeed part of what a being was. But the point is, it was a non-material part. Wen Paul discusses the Holy Spirit speaking to or ministering to our spirits, in both cases we are dealing with something non-material. <BR/><BR/>Interestingly as well human pneuma was distinguished from Psuche, or life-breath which was seen as material. We see these three things distinguished rather clearly in 1 Cor. 15. <BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-57497652556637829792008-01-21T13:01:00.000-08:002008-01-21T13:01:00.000-08:00Wouldn't they just get their old teeth back, but t...Wouldn't they just get their old teeth back, but transformed?<BR/><BR/>The ghost of Henry VIII carried his head tucked underneath his arm, 'proving' that songwriters believed ghosts had physical heads and arms.<BR/><BR/>Spirit was a component of the body in ancient thought.<BR/><BR/>Galen wrote about different kinds of 'pneuma' in the body.<BR/><BR/>I doubt if he was the first person to think that way.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-16323436273717493682008-01-21T12:23:00.000-08:002008-01-21T12:23:00.000-08:00Every knee will indeed bow one day and every tongu...Every knee will indeed bow one day and every tongue confess at the resurrection, which of course requires knees and tongues, amongst other body parts. I am reminded of the famous debate amongst the rabbis of what would happen to those who went to hell, but had no teeth, since Scripture said there would be gnashing of teeth. The reply was that they would get new teeth at the resurrection of the wicked before being sent to Hades !<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-28938731629302246692008-01-21T12:07:00.000-08:002008-01-21T12:07:00.000-08:00Great Post. Someday every knee shall bow!Physical...Great Post. Someday every knee shall bow!<BR/><BR/>Physically or Spiritually bow? lol.Jason Garwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16761611366784000898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-67463126341806209812008-01-21T08:15:00.000-08:002008-01-21T08:15:00.000-08:00James White also has very good book on this subjec...James White also has very good book on this subject of the tomb.<BR/><BR/>Peace!Hollands Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07934064700542652027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-79126066464635336962008-01-21T00:07:00.000-08:002008-01-21T00:07:00.000-08:00some people just have no dignity eh?!flogging hors...some people just have no dignity eh?!<BR/><BR/>flogging horse is cruel, but when they are dead it's just meaningless, let them have their fun, at least it keeps them off the streets :)Jonathan Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18295840754661890186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-13730746003611705742008-01-20T22:29:00.000-08:002008-01-20T22:29:00.000-08:00'(an idea that would have been a non sequitur or o...'(an idea that would have been a non sequitur or oxymoron-- 'spirit refers to something non-material, and so not a component or substance of a body).'<BR/><BR/>So Galen did not think that 'animal spirits' were not a component of a human being?<BR/><BR/>Paul says Jesus became 'a life-giving spirit'.<BR/><BR/>We now know that a spirit is something which is non-material.....Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-73555074726844337232008-01-20T17:17:00.000-08:002008-01-20T17:17:00.000-08:00Ben:Thanks for the post. I think this will die a q...Ben:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the post. I think this will die a quick death as well, but if certain persons get a hold of this, surely at Easter there will be a quickly-put-together special on cable TV.<BR/><BR/>There are those who are so opposed to the possibility of Jesus' resurrection, that their motto is "Abandon reason, all ye who enter here." As the great G.K. Chesterton reminded us, those who refuse to believe in the reasonable, will believe in anything.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.com