tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post5555142759187589598..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Monk See, Monk Do-- The Disgrace of the Church of the Holy SepulchreBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-60109447275078252642008-11-16T19:06:00.000-08:002008-11-16T19:06:00.000-08:00As we well know "Christians" have been killing and...As we well know "Christians" have been killing and slaughtering each other for a long time and in many places. It appears to be quite the pastime for Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. Not much difference in this respect from Muslims, Incas, Buddhist, etc. <BR/><BR/>This brawl has a lamentably comical aspect because of the elaborate robes and long beards lending an aura of greater holiness. It can be seen also as the ultimate irony in that it takes place on the supposed place where the prince of peace gave his life for us.José Solanohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04589289554046198929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-27191715168721363462008-11-14T20:35:00.000-08:002008-11-14T20:35:00.000-08:00I wouldn't get too worked up about it. At least th...I wouldn't get too worked up about it. At least they're not bombing each other.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08148601072977692128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1232352662657255442008-11-10T14:32:00.000-08:002008-11-10T14:32:00.000-08:00and the mindset is formible because through experi...and the mindset is formible because through experience, over and over, one learns that the "other" does not respect boundaries, which dissolves trust, which is the basis of relationship.<BR/><BR/>I would think that boundaries are certainly to be respected, as it regards another's life, in whatever choice that life decides to commit...so it is really not about religion or belief as it is about proper respect and regard for another. The social contract does seek to rectify the differences through negotiation and compromise. It is nothing but international relations and diplomacy.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-16871287844418853462008-11-10T13:47:00.000-08:002008-11-10T13:47:00.000-08:00Fundamentalism is a mindset that is closed, and fe...Fundamentalism is a mindset that is closed, and feels very sure of its opinions, or at least longs to do so. There is a lust for certainty, absolute certainty, even about things one cannot have such a certainity about, at least on a historical or intellectual level. When I was a Harvard there was a professor at the Div. school who read Donald Guthrie's Intro to the NT and declared: "This is very well done and well researched but when I discovered he took the conservative view on every book of the NT, I was certain that he was wrong." That would be a fundamentalist liberal! As I have said-- it is not a theological viewpoint, its a mindset.<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-29265966420127492932008-11-10T13:22:00.000-08:002008-11-10T13:22:00.000-08:00Yeah it really is sad. When Brooke and I were ther...Yeah it really is sad. When Brooke and I were there, it made us sick. Each of the six sects of Christians represented at the church have their own section of the church that they are required to take care of. Fights break out all of the time between them if "boundaries" are crossed. <BR/><BR/>In fact, my friend Wyn said that once while he was there he walked across a freshly mopped floor in the Greek Orthodox section and on into another section. The G.O. man went ballistic on Wyn about how he was tracking Greek water into a different sect's area and how much trouble he would be in later for it happening.<BR/><BR/>Also, if you look at the church from the front, there is a ladder about 2/3 of the way up in a window. It has been there for hundreds of years because none of the sects knows whose responsible for it.<BR/><BR/>And, as Michael pointed out, the ironic thing is that a Muslim decides whether or not he is going to open the doors each day.JPHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02764659387763072720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-31906561093349946542008-11-10T12:51:00.000-08:002008-11-10T12:51:00.000-08:00OK, I'll bite. Can you describe a fundamentalist ...OK, I'll bite. Can you describe a fundamentalist liberal?<BR/><BR/>Was at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre earlier this year. The in-fighting as it were has prevented much upkeep and maintenance. What should be the most glorious of Christian sites is less than so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-35325217705997632552008-11-10T12:01:00.000-08:002008-11-10T12:01:00.000-08:00Angie I would have to disagree with you on that. T...Angie I would have to disagree with you on that. The Bible is not the problem. The fundamentalist mindset of fallible humans is. And the interesting thing is that there are fundamentalist liberals just as there are fundamentalist conservatives.<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-4753405778678559842008-11-10T11:21:00.000-08:002008-11-10T11:21:00.000-08:00This atmosphere is only accentuated by exclusivist...This atmosphere is only accentuated by exclusivist claims to "truth". Exclusivist claims do not breed open communication, listening, honesty, tolerance, compromise, diplomacy, and commitment to the other, but railings of "truth", accusations, etc....and fundamentalists of all types of religions are guilty...And I think, when it comes to Christians, it is the text that becomes the problem....Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-26486616243073803612008-11-10T10:43:00.000-08:002008-11-10T10:43:00.000-08:00Steve Pressley:I would like to know where Bernard ...Steve Pressley:<BR/><BR/>I would like to know where Bernard Lewis is getting his information, as Muslims have a long history of fighting each other over the precepts of religion. Indeed, the Shiites (Twelvers and Seveners et. al.) Sunnis, Druze, Alawites, and other sects have all fought each other over religious issues. Moreover, in Islam, religion and politics are generally one in the same. An ideal Muslim state will be governed by Islamic ideals and pious Muslim leaders. <BR/><BR/>Of course, it is impossible to generalize and say "Muslims" believe this or that. The different sects of Islam shown above represent only a fraction of the different branches, and disagreements abound among them all. This is why there will never be a unified Islamic nation (umma) coming to take over the world, which so many individuals seem to worry about here in the states. <BR/><BR/> I suggest reading: Ira M. Lapidus. "A History of Islamic Societies." 2d ed.United Kingdom: Cambridge University Press, 2002. Ira Lapidus is a former professor at UC Berkeley. <BR/><BR/>-BrianBrian Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13856287766775774486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-82052130630842794902008-11-10T10:27:00.000-08:002008-11-10T10:27:00.000-08:00Thanks for also pointing out the irony of this act...Thanks for also pointing out the irony of this action on this spot and the history of it. It does amaze me to what degree we Christians can find that which divides us, instead of getting on with the real matters of the Kingdom. We do indeed "fiddle, while Rome is (and other places are) burning." KevinKevin Schriverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13984321606470112985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-82692906056657799382008-11-10T05:19:00.000-08:002008-11-10T05:19:00.000-08:00Hi Steve:I have not done that, but its an excellen...Hi Steve:<BR/><BR/>I have not done that, but its an excellent idea, and I will propose it to someone who could definitely create such a thing.<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-18465582677677809512008-11-10T05:15:00.000-08:002008-11-10T05:15:00.000-08:00Yikes. Depressing and unedifying stuff. (The actua...Yikes. Depressing and unedifying stuff. (The actual situation, not your post!)<BR/><BR/>According to John Julius Norwich's history of Byzantium, the reason for a Muslim family holding the keys is not simply because of inter-Christian acrimony. <BR/><BR/>Apparently the first Muslim conqueror of Jerusalem (one of the early caliphs, IIRC) visited the Church of the Holy Sepulchre on his arrival in the city. When the time came for him (as a Muslim) to pray, however, he left the church in order to avoid the building being seized by his followers as a mosque. Instead, he prayed in the church porch - which (confirming the wisdom of his actions) was promptly taken over by his followers.John Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11074559601919298190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-37830432053424145992008-11-10T04:19:00.000-08:002008-11-10T04:19:00.000-08:00They've done that again and again, haven't they? ...They've done that again and again, haven't they? Christianity Today reported a similar occurrence in 02, except it involved Ethopian Orthodox and Egyptian Coptic monks who threw white plastic chairs at each other.<BR/><BR/>Do Jews and Muslims brawl with each other? I was listening to a CD conversation between Mars Hill Audio's Ken Myers and a professor named Bernard Lewis. Lewis said while Muslims may fight one another, it's never over anything regarding their religion.<BR/><BR/>Wish I could attend your book signing. I am ordering multiple copies of The Lazarus Effect for a study group in our church in the new year. Have you prepared a guide of some sort, for those looking at interfaith relations?Steve Pressleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06679511631974579570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-76863567284429405892008-11-09T21:46:00.000-08:002008-11-09T21:46:00.000-08:00This is me being a sad Rob.This is me being a sad Rob.Rob Pennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02213274926132371888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-74304707050572458852008-11-09T19:57:00.000-08:002008-11-09T19:57:00.000-08:00As is often the case, there is probably a lot more...As is often the case, there is probably a lot more that has happened at lower levels of conflict between the two parties involved that has not been dealt with in the biblical manner....therefore we see a wonderful example of "category 5" conflict.<BR/><BR/>I agree with Krissi and yourself Ben, a sad sad reality that can be ever present in the church environment, as we live in the tension of now and not yet....Ashley Biermannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15803750641484381868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-6558721071601515402008-11-09T19:24:00.000-08:002008-11-09T19:24:00.000-08:00Guess it just stands as a testimony to the sin nat...Guess it just stands as a testimony to the sin nature of humans, that even the saved are not free from it's grasp on humanity. Christians can't live out Holiness all the time. However, this event is still really sad.Philip and Briarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08901848936187360570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-42306587446461439222008-11-09T19:15:00.000-08:002008-11-09T19:15:00.000-08:00A sad commentary, but thanks for sharing it noneth...A sad commentary, but thanks for sharing it nonetheless.Mark Baker-Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14593390925694976101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-15628751594019616322008-11-09T18:34:00.000-08:002008-11-09T18:34:00.000-08:00Wow. This makes me sad.Wow. This makes me sad.Krissihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05251832311405963636noreply@blogger.com