tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post203926395940094170..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: THE GOOD BISHOP WEIGHS IN-- TOM WRIGHT ON 'SURPRISED BY HOPE'Ben Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-60471565287880713212009-04-15T21:52:00.000-07:002009-04-15T21:52:00.000-07:00Dr Witherington,
Wright mentions that the risen bo...Dr Witherington,<br />Wright mentions that the risen body of Jesus was seen by His disciples. He mentions it as if they were seeing into the heavenly dimension. How does this avoid the same problem we run into when we speak of others having bodies in heaven? Also, if in some way Jesus is not "fully embodied", then how does he escape the "limited" form of existence of which you speak? If you say it is because he is divine, in what way is he still demonstrating his "human-ness"?Matt Posthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11628731416413902724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-5029725701202847262009-04-11T21:22:00.000-07:002009-04-11T21:22:00.000-07:00Do you know of any written works that develop a fu...Do you know of any written works that develop a fully Trinitarian creation/new creation sequence? The late Colin Gunton pointed out that Irenaus was the best writer on this topic. Perhaps if we had developed a fully Trinitarian presentation of the original good creation, we would not be struggling in the same way with NTW's re-focus on Trinitarian (re-embodied) new creation!dent8https://www.blogger.com/profile/00436353216577278278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-62942755772443027102009-04-10T17:54:00.000-07:002009-04-10T17:54:00.000-07:00In response to the dialogue between davey and BW3....In response to the dialogue between davey and BW3.<BR/><BR/>One of the things that NTW notes as a major difference between "heaveners" and "new-earthers" in "Surprised by Hope" is that if our eternal hope is a disembodied heaven then physical death has not truly been defeated, but merely redefined. The notion of eternity in heaven, I think NTW is trying to say, ignores the reality that Christ actually conquered the grave.Zack Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624381145188381774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-49920374901536816692009-03-31T09:08:00.000-07:002009-03-31T09:08:00.000-07:00In response to 'davey': I am a bit confused as to ...In response to 'davey': I am a bit confused as to what it is in your questions that you feel is not being addressed, but maybe I can help (as one who has been profoundly helped by Wright's work). If I'm understanding you, your question is, "Why should we accept the 'new heaven/new earth' model rather than the widespread view of heaven? What difference does it make for Christians?" I think there are at least 3 good reasons:<BR/><BR/>1) Because the Bible teaches a 'new heaven/new earth' scenario, and does not teach that when we die, we go to heaven, and that's it. Even if the model made no difference in Christian praxis, it would still be appropriate for us to embrace what the Bible actually says about our future as opposed to current popular notions accepted by many Christians today. If we act as though a current widespread misunderstanding of an important biblical doctrine is not such a big deal, I don't see how that's honoring to the God we serve.<BR/><BR/>2) Because it really does affect the way many Christians view their walk with God, their vocation, their place in the body of Christ, etc. Yes, there are many Christians who believe that we go to heaven for eternity, who still carry out wonderful ministries. I myself was involved in various ministries long before I understood this 'new earth' stuff. But as someone who was raised in a strict fundamentalist 'KJV only' setting, I can tell you that there are indeed many Christians who become so preoccupied with the rapture, with being taken out of the world to go to heaven with Jesus that all that matters is 'saving souls', and no emphasis is ever made on helping the poor, being wise stewards of creation, etc. Maybe you'd say: "Well obviously they're misunderstanding the purpose of the gospel." I would respond: "Exactly." And the gospel, as the NT reveals it, has a lot to do with resurrection and the restoration of creation.<BR/><BR/>3) Because knowing that 'our labor in the Lord is not in vain' can make our experience in the present much more fulfilling, satisfying, exciting, etc. I always used to wonder why it made any difference what I did in this world, not because I didn't want to do good, but because I felt like it was pointless. But seeing that the NT explicitly declares that how I obey God in the present has real, eternal effects fills me with more excitement and motivation to obey God than I ever had when I assumed that, one day, the world would go to hell and God would take us away to heaven.<BR/><BR/>I should add that your concern about 'triumphalism' is exactly one of the two mistaken viewpoints that Wright interacts with throughout the whole book. Have you read it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-85786977259396987512009-03-28T11:12:00.000-07:002009-03-28T11:12:00.000-07:00Having tracked NTW since the late '60s, I have adm...Having tracked NTW since the late '60s, I have admired his ability to connect with those with whom he differs. One of his main current challenges with conservative evangelicals appears to be that of pointing out to his opponents that he does not differ in "order" but in "degree"; AND the degrees matter!<BR/>The new creation emphasis produces a powerful antidote to "disincarnate" spirituality which gravitates so readily to disembodied egocentricity (nous-mind-centricity) as over against bodysouls being taken up in theocentricity, and delighting to be part of the big story. <BR/> In relation to the charge of dualism - I seem to recollect that NTW describes the soul as the whole person as known by God. The Polkinghorne "software/hardware analogy (thought useful) omits the concept of personhood and the preserving care of the beloved by the Great Lover.<BR/>Thank you for the interview. Given the role that NTW has taken on/been offered, clarifications and expansions are essential in order to minimize the propagation of myths!dent8https://www.blogger.com/profile/00436353216577278278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-61494157443150770832009-03-25T11:01:00.000-07:002009-03-25T11:01:00.000-07:00In response to the string of comments with Davey ,...In response to the string of comments with Davey , about whether there is any difference between heaven and the new creation let me offer a paragraph from a sermon that I gave entitled "Better Than Heaven." Some of this is a little corny -- but I pastor in the rural south.<BR/>"The Bible teaches that there is life after life after death – but that there is an even more glorious life in a more glorious promise -- a new creation. Think of what we will miss and what we will have if the future is a new earth that is in some fashion continuous with the present creation.<BR/><BR/>I want to always know the feel of a babies head – and I will if our destiny is a new creation.<BR/><BR/>I want to always love to hear the sound of a happy laugh - and I will if our destiny is a new creation.<BR/><BR/>I want always to be amazed by majesty of a mountain range -- and I will if our destiny is a new creation.<BR/><BR/>I want always to be delighted by a spring breeze -- and I will if our destiny is a new creation.<BR/><BR/>I want always to hear the voice of one I love calling my name. -- and I will if our destiny is a new creation.<BR/><BR/>I want always to be delighted by the beauty of a butterfly or the curly locks of a little girl --<BR/>and I will if our destiny is a new creation.<BR/><BR/>I want always to hear the turkey call in the spring"Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08143505977312808972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-17498681657287483702009-03-20T05:15:00.000-07:002009-03-20T05:15:00.000-07:00Hi Davey: Thanks for all your thoughtful posts. H...Hi Davey: Thanks for all your thoughtful posts. Here is where I tell you in closing that you are wrong about the 'standard' view of heaven, and that includes the NT view of the same. It is always viewed as less than an embodied existence, and therefore less than a fully human or satisfactory existence.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-79238831950983347412009-03-19T09:51:00.000-07:002009-03-19T09:51:00.000-07:00First of all, thank you Ben for this excellent int...First of all, thank you Ben for this excellent interview. I loved SBH, and I really appreciated Tom's wonderful summary in answer to your first question. I also appreciated your own comments on the Hellenistic fallacy of God being outside of time, and your beautiful notion that <I>"The prophets envisioned the kingdom come on earth as in considerable continuity with this life at its best--- see e.g. Is. 65.17-25. What they envision is a war stoppage, not a work stoppage."</I><BR/><BR/>Regarding your back-and-forth with davey, I would only add that for me, the most exciting thing about the "new earth" concept as Wright is proposing it, is that it's Biblical! I am frequently frustrated by the preponderance of extrabiblical notions in both theology and popular conceptions of God and Jesus. Whether or not the notion of new earth is ontologically "better" than the notion of heaven is somewhat beside the point if it's Biblically more accurate.<BR/><BR/>That said, I do affirm with davey that we're called to the same obedience either way. . .Dan Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01635080266346679464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-35212230702264343502009-03-19T07:04:00.000-07:002009-03-19T07:04:00.000-07:00Ben, Enjoyed it, thanks for sharing. I also agree-...Ben, <BR/><BR/>Enjoyed it, thanks for sharing. I also agree- it's a classic.<BR/><BR/>Did Wright share how his latest work (book on Justification) is coming along and when it might be released? :) Thanks again,<BR/><BR/>-MigMiguelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07894442394530005800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-65736594913816213412009-03-19T05:21:00.000-07:002009-03-19T05:21:00.000-07:00Sorry to be so late on the comment! Ben, you brou...Sorry to be so late on the comment! Ben, you brought up an excellent point on the tension between 'good works' and salvation by grace. I understand the distinctions made by many between 'rewards' and 'being saved', as a strong calvanist myself, I see merit in the distinction, but to be honest the flow of the New Testament does not make the disctinction as cleary as we would like it to be. God bess, JohnCorpus Christi Outreach Ministrieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03164866291727500237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-47557880436045782842009-03-19T04:57:00.000-07:002009-03-19T04:57:00.000-07:00Ben, What I am considering is a view of heaven whe...Ben, What I am considering is a view of heaven where whatever form of life people have there for <BR/>eternity has nothing valuable to people missing from it. This seems to me the standard view of heaven. (I suppose your view is of some intermediate state before eternity that Wright speculates somewhat about, so it is not to the point.) New earth will have to be so different from present earth as to make it equivalent to the standard view of heaven. The question remains, why would people who would generally have the standard view of heaven be so enthused by Surprised by Hope?daveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491273475922055067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-15793682332433739772009-03-18T14:41:00.000-07:002009-03-18T14:41:00.000-07:00And my response to that is--- unless you are a Gno...And my response to that is--- unless you are a Gnostic, a disembodied state could never be equal to an embodied one. Human beings are bodies with breath in them. To be less than that, to be 'absent from the body' as Paul puts it, is to be naked in the presence of God-- a mere human spirit in the presence of God. Frankly, I don't see how that holds a candle to having a resurrection body in the new creation. We are not full persons apart from a body, which is precisely why heaven is only an interim condition. God wants us to be all that we can be, and all he originally intended us to be, and that frankly is not possible in a disembodied state in heaven. Kapish?<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-53494768310564334512009-03-18T14:18:00.000-07:002009-03-18T14:18:00.000-07:00I am asking for imagination, not speculation. Many...I am asking for imagination, not speculation. Many of my questions are not questions but attempts to <BR/>stimulate imagination adequate for my points to be properly addressed! Why are people enthused by the idea they will be in a new earth rather than heaven? What ideas have they got on new earth versus heaven? These ideas are not only that the Bible talks in terms of new earth rather than heaven, they feel the new earth is somehow better than heaven. Why? My contention is that there should be no difference in what might be <BR/>expected in heaven or new earth. Also that there should be no difference in how people should conduct their lives whether their destination is heaven or new earth.daveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491273475922055067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-83817226097113401282009-03-18T08:01:00.000-07:002009-03-18T08:01:00.000-07:00Davey I think the images from the prophets are a p...Davey I think the images from the prophets are a perfectly good answer to your question. No, it was not be a transformed mess, it will be what it was intended to be in the first place, starting from the Garden of Eden. Read the description in Rev. 21-22 which is not a description of life in heaven, but rather of heaven and earth. I think Tom is quite right to be reluctant to speculation on precise details when the Bible does not give us such things. What we know from Romans 8 is that all of creation has been subjected to the Fall, but in hope of liberation. Resurrection would be pretty pointless if we were just going to be new creatures in a pretty but pretty worn out earth. And as for if I plant a tree now will it be there in the Kingdom, my response would be--- why not? I think Tolkien's vision of old earth is in some ways suggestive of what new creation could be like. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-15189588224938455312009-03-17T20:40:00.000-07:002009-03-17T20:40:00.000-07:00I think davey's questions and points are quite cog...I think davey's questions and points are quite cogent.Brigittehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259491144770243688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-38038195867533273202009-03-17T13:41:00.000-07:002009-03-17T13:41:00.000-07:00Wyatt I do think the 12 are representatives to Isr...Wyatt I do think the 12 are representatives to Israel, but here is precisely the point---JESUS ISN'T ONE OF THE 12. He is not Israel and the 12 are not ministering to him! They are sent to the lost sheep=Israel which is someone other than Jesus or the 12. You can find this in my Matthew commentary or if its Paul's version of things in my Romans commentary. Also in my Jesus books-- Jesus the Sage, and Jesus the Seer, and the Christology of Jesus. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-4166806120663592352009-03-17T03:58:00.000-07:002009-03-17T03:58:00.000-07:00Ben, feel free to call a halt anytime on these exc...Ben, feel free to call a halt anytime on these exchanges, but you do not seem yet to be engaging with my points. I agree there is 'a clear connection between ... here on earth', and am disconcerted by it. My concern is with the justification of Christians holding that connection, and their expectations of its outcome. Of course we should care for the environment, but because we should be variously caring people, not because we think the environment will continue forever. Are you suggesting we should plant a tree now in the expectation that that tree will exist in the new earth, and that if we don't plant the tree the new earth will be missing a tree? I would want Wrightians to spell out what sorts of ideas they have about the new earth. They seem to think it will be just like now, but without bad bits. That the new earth will be a mere transformation of whatever the earth looks like at the time of its transformation. If it is a mess because of global warming, it will still be a mess only a beautified mess, for instance. If the tree gets blight despite our best efforts, as things do in this world, will it be a beautified blighted tree still? So, just how in eternity will our present efforts matter? I think that however the new earth will be there is no big deal in telling people their thoughts of spending eternity in heaven are in need of urgent correction, and that the idea of the new earth is enthralling and life changing. Perhaps one thing I'm wanting is some more imagination being exercised.daveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491273475922055067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-72635255769261600442009-03-16T16:14:00.000-07:002009-03-16T16:14:00.000-07:00Davey lets take an issue like ecology and concern ...Davey lets take an issue like ecology and concern for the environment. If this world is simply heading for oblivion, and we finish the race in heaven. Then not only is there not much incentive for us to be conservations, God himself is not a conservationist. But on the other hand, if it is part of the creation mandate to tend the garden and care for it, as in fact there is, and if in fact part of the reason for this is that we are preparing to live forever in such an environment, then there is some point to "the conservation of matter and energy". There is in fact a clear connection between Christians who are concerned about going green, and what they believe about the afterlife, here on earth. <BR/><BR/>I don't really see how this qualifies in any way as triumphalism. Why in the world wouldn't God want what we do in this life to matter in eternity? But as Paul says in discussing the future resurrection in 1 Cor. 15, it is precisely because of that resurrection that our work in the Lord in this life is not labor in vain.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-69492780789952653752009-03-16T15:04:00.000-07:002009-03-16T15:04:00.000-07:00Hi Ben, Oh dear, we are still talking past one ano...Hi Ben, Oh dear, we are still talking past one another! Let's say, pre Wright people thought before death they should act as Christians should. After death, they were thinking they would go to heaven and there be no second place like new earth coming along to then be in. Comes Wright, who says people should act somehow differently before death, on account of it not being heaven they are going to in the end but new earth. I can't see that they should act differently in either scenario. Comes Wright, who says it makes a difference in how things will be after death whether people are going to heaven for good or (first to heaven and then) new earth. I can't see there being a difference in what things are expected to be like by people whether they think they will be in heaven for good or whether they think they will be on the new earth. Thus, I think people enthusing over Wright must be expecting things to be different now, not after death, in his scenario. This seems to me to be a triumphalistic scenario rather than a simply acting as Christians should with actually every expectation things won't go particularly well.daveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491273475922055067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-33166015514868679442009-03-16T05:10:00.000-07:002009-03-16T05:10:00.000-07:00Hi Davey:Lets be clear. Wright is not saying, its ...Hi Davey:<BR/><BR/>Lets be clear. Wright is not saying, its an either or thing. One dies and goes to heaven, and then eventually there is new creation thereafter. I see no danger of triumphalism in saying that the work we do that is good and godly in this life, matters to God, it is not done in vain. It has an eternal purpose. Wright distinguishes between building for the Kingdom and building the Kingdom, and I find that perfectly adequate. God will take our small offerings and incorporate them into something far greater and more beautiful. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-5367067184207752662009-03-16T04:56:00.000-07:002009-03-16T04:56:00.000-07:00Ben, your answer is very proper and correct, but i...Ben, your answer is very proper and correct, but is not to the point. The point is, why is it enthralling for people to be told their destination will be a new earth rather than heaven? Wright actually offers people a new earth experience that is no different than they already thought things would be like in heaven. Except for those who thought they would have the 'beatific vision', who might be expected to be disappointed. Isn't the real attraction of Wright's ideas a dangerous triumphalism people are being offered about what difference they can make to the world now in working 'for the kingdom'.daveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491273475922055067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-21157749096364346612009-03-15T08:27:00.000-07:002009-03-15T08:27:00.000-07:00What Paul says about the resurrection body is clea...What Paul says about the resurrection body is clear enough in the way he compares and contrasts it with our present mortal bodies in 1 Cor. 15. The continuity is that in both cases there is a material body inhabited by you. The discontinuity is summed up by saying that our current bodies are weak, that one will be strong or powerful. Our current bodies are mortal, that one will be immortal. Our current bodies are inglorious, our res. body will be suffused with glory, i .e. the living presence of God. <BR/>It will a body completely enlivened by the Spirit of God ('spiritual body' is an incorrect translation of what Paul says there). In short, we will be immune to disease, decay and death. The prophets envisioned the kingdom come on earth as in considerable continuity with this life at its best--- see e.g. Is. 65.17-25. What they envision is a war stoppage, not a work stoppage. <BR/>Permanent retirement is a modern myth. <BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-46704234318541656192009-03-15T02:39:00.000-07:002009-03-15T02:39:00.000-07:00It is not clear what the extent of the difference ...It is not clear what the extent of the difference will be between our present bodies and resurrection <BR/>bodies (partially seen in Jesus' appearances?). 'Body' may be a term indicating there being individuals with differentiated perceptual and activity capabilities. Also, won't New Creation 'material' have to be <BR/>very different than material is now (no stubbing toes)? How is it edifying, then, to make such a big deal of us not going to 'Heaven' (where isn't it normally understood there will be activity and interaction between individuals we have known?) but being in a renewed earth. Also, will we be able to visit other <BR/>planets? Will we be able to travel in time? I think 'new earthers' owe us some account of why 'heaveners' need such heavy handed 'correction', as if it amounts to something revelatory and vital (going far beyond the mere, granted, fact that this is a major way the bible itself says things. But, then, many things in <BR/>the New Testament are reframings of older ideas.). Indeed, it is taken as revelatory to many people, but I think a big factor in this is a dangerous triumphalism, people thinking this world will be improving as they work for the Kingdom, coming on an earth practically like this but without the bad bits. I think this <BR/>latter idea is much more in need of challenging.daveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491273475922055067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-60523977878102668272009-03-14T13:46:00.000-07:002009-03-14T13:46:00.000-07:00Firstly, if by heaven you mean the eternal dwellin...Firstly, if by heaven you mean the eternal dwelling place of God which existed prior to the creation of the heavens and earth, then no... you can't equate heaven with new creation or the new heavens and the new earth. The latter refers to a material realm, transformed or made new by God. Heaven, is not a material realm. This is precisely why Paul says in 2 Cor. 5--- that he will be absent from the body and present with the Lord when he dies. <BR/><BR/>Secondly, the Bible absolutely does not affirm the notion of the Eternal Now, as opposed to time being infinitely extended in heaven. Notice how the saints under the altar in heaven ask God "How long O Lord". No, heaven is not a place where there is no procession of what we would call time. <BR/><BR/>And as to how the new creation will be different from dying and going to heaven. Much in every way. We will not have bodies of any kind in heaven. Resurrection is what happens when Christ returns to earth, not something that happens in heaven.<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-63271926873259954752009-03-14T13:15:00.000-07:002009-03-14T13:15:00.000-07:00Well, my interest is really in what difference the...Well, my interest is really in what difference there is supposed to be between new heavens and new earth and the traditional heaven. That is, supposing new heavens and new earth isn't just like old earth but without the bad bits like stubbing your toe, and heaven is not just lounging around on clouds with harps.daveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491273475922055067noreply@blogger.com