tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post113942264244541864..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: God and Gambling-- the Latest ScourgeBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-21605011579817748332008-04-20T08:42:00.000-07:002008-04-20T08:42:00.000-07:00Dear BenI am a christian and have always battled w...Dear Ben<BR/><BR/>I am a christian and have always battled with God about gambling, and tonight as I played Poker online I prayed while i was playing and thought hey God you can bless me thro this... So $600 later, I googled God and Gambling only to find this blog. I have never blogged before but here i am. I learnt tonight that when i gamble even with $1 I am doing it to win. That emotion that rises up within me is incredible.. I guess if God wanted us to Gamble He would bless the Christain nation thro it but it is not of Him. We can justify it any way we want but I have lost thousands, and no one I know is up, my buddy drops about $8000 a week on the horses, yes he has some wins but he told me he is still down alot.<BR/>I think it is a dangerous thing to play with and if you do win, you will lose twice as much within time, I have, i actually am down about 20 times what i first won. We can argue for hours about the petty things and compare it to copying videos or chewing gum but hey we all know within where we stand with God, it is between you and <BR/>Him and you cant lie to yourself.. we all have vices and we all justify it, but enough is enough.... the drugs the internet porn the prostitutes the affairs.....we all have skeletons if we only realised hiding it all keeps us trapped..... God doesnt want us to have guilt its not of Him..... may His mercy be on all of us.....Thank Christ for what He didJareddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15418392233605915183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-40054642126326313832008-04-20T08:30:00.000-07:002008-04-20T08:30:00.000-07:00Dear BenI am a christian and have always battled w...Dear Ben<BR/><BR/>I am a christian and have always battled with God about gambling, and tonight as I played Poker online I prayed while i was playing and thought hey God you can bless me thro this... So $600 later, I googled God and Gambling only to find this blog. I have never blogged before but here i am. I learnt tonight that when i gamble even with $1 I am doing it to win. That emotion that rises up within me is incredible.. I guess if God wanted us to Gamble He would bless the Christain nation thro it but it is not of Him. We can justify it any way we want but I have lost thousands, and no one I know is up, my buddy drops about $8000 a week on the horses, yes he has some wins but he told me he is still down alot.<BR/>I think it is a dangerous thing to play with and if you do win, you will lose twice as much within time, I have, i actually am down about 20 times what i first won. We can argue for hours about the petty things and compare it to copying videos or chewing gum but hey we all know within where we stand with God, it is between you and <BR/>Him and you cant lie to yourself.. we all have vices and we all justify it, but enough is enough.... the drugs the internet porn the prostitutes the affairs.....we all have skeletons if we only realised hiding it all keeps us trapped..... God doesnt want us to have guilt its not of Him..... may His mercy be on all of us.....Thank Christ for what He didJareddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15418392233605915183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-32366876759980519022008-03-04T02:23:00.000-08:002008-03-04T02:23:00.000-08:00i think it is an individuals decision whether they...i think it is an individuals decision whether they gamble or not! i personally play <A HREF="http://www.littlewoodsbingo.com/littlewoodsbingo/bingo/online-bingo-community/health-beauty/4987/frocks-that-rock.thtml" REL="nofollow">online bingo game</A>s, they dont cost a lot and are loads of fun and i dont see it as a massive gamble and soemthing i could stop 2moro!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-11809530122565024432007-12-23T19:45:00.000-08:002007-12-23T19:45:00.000-08:00I don't see gambling as a sin in itself. It defina...I don't see <A HREF="http://www.gambling.ph" REL="nofollow">gambling</A> as a sin in itself. It definately depends on the circumstance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-79097765702532273392007-10-29T06:20:00.000-07:002007-10-29T06:20:00.000-07:00I don't think that online gambling is the actual p...I don't think that <A HREF="http://www.choosinganonlinecasino.com/" REL="nofollow">online gambling</A> is the actual problem. If you think that you can't hold your horses when stepping into a <A HREF="http://www.choosinganonlinecasino.com/" REL="nofollow">virtual online casino</A>, then you shouldn't be there. It is just a matter of personal strenght.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06528841363162518882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-70936125073505366902007-10-25T23:48:00.000-07:002007-10-25T23:48:00.000-07:00Hello all I just came across this blog and I have ...Hello all I just came across this blog and I have only looked over about half of it I'm not a big reader, sorry but I do want to comment on the subject.I mean no disrespect and I am only voiceing my opinion to get God out of the box we call religion. I recently had a conversation with God on this very subject and he said "Steve I don't have anymore problem with playing poker than I do with eating" and I was thinking what! God said "if someone over endulges in eating and get fat that is a glutney which is no different than one that over endulges in gambling or drinking or exercise or the stock market it is a mater of the heart when selfish lust enters in is when the problem begins" The lord has put the desire in my heart to start a poker ministry I know this my sound rediculous to many of you thats ok it sounds a little crazy to me also concidering I'm not very good at the game, but God dosn't call the qualified He qualifies the called, thank you Jesus. If it had not been for his love, mercy and grace I would be here typing this note and hacking the spelling on all these words hallelujah! anyway back to what God was telling me He said that He wants the Gospel taken to places such as the poker table he wants all those people to know how much he loves them and that he loves them just the way they are right where they are and it's not about doing everything just right but that it is about relationship with Him and if they have a gambling problem or an eating problem or a drinking problem it's ok becuse the more they get to know Him and his uncondtional love and His grace and mercy all those things will fall away and the new man will amerge. Well thats all for now my pecking fingers are getting tired. Love you all and never forget we are all on the same team. Steve <BR/>P.S. about 96% of people who invest in the stock market lose money.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10523959426205372545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-50002484818226691162007-07-24T01:12:00.000-07:002007-07-24T01:12:00.000-07:00Furthermore, what of competitions that have a priz...Furthermore, what of competitions that have a prize? An entry fee is required, which usually is a little amount of money compared to the first place prize. You enter, pay the fee, compete fairly without any guarantee that you are going to win, like the PGA or NASCAR, for example. Same principle: getting a lot of something for next to nothing. But the analogy draws thin here, because not only do PGA and NASCAR athletes put up a fee but they also demonstrate raw and spectacular talent--those who perform the best and have stood up to the qualifications receive the prize. Yet, the element of getting a lot of something for next to nothing still exists.<BR/><BR/><BR/>i wanted to ask about this point. would it be considered a sin that someone paying an entry fee for a professional sporting event and won the sporting event and collected the money. I mean it takes great skill to win the sporting event but it could be considered a gamble none the less.<BR/><BR/>and wasnt there a verse in the bible about taking advantage of your brother? could entering in a sporting event with worse players than you be taking advantage of them? anyway, just was wonderingLasrFalconFanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04699301386727846067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1141523395151228532006-03-04T17:49:00.000-08:002006-03-04T17:49:00.000-08:00Dr. Witherington,I enjoy reading your blog. It is ...Dr. Witherington,<BR/><BR/>I enjoy reading your blog. It is very inspiring. My question is out of subject (I apologize). I am interested doing Ph.D. work in New Testament studies concentrating in the Gospels, Historical Jesus and Johannine Literature. What are the schools will you recommend for such pursuit?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139866791847544782006-02-13T13:39:00.000-08:002006-02-13T13:39:00.000-08:00Joe,I don't get the "tuba sound" but I like the po...Joe,<BR/><BR/>I don't get the "tuba sound" but I like the post... I really liked you comment about focusing on the rules vs. focusing on the Ruler.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your insights!Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139810204290878802006-02-12T21:56:00.000-08:002006-02-12T21:56:00.000-08:00Hi BP,Huh??? You lost me - I don't have a problem...Hi BP,<BR/><BR/>Huh??? You lost me - I don't have a problem with people freely stating their opinions - you may have misread something... <BR/><BR/>As for gambling absolutely being a sin - does anyone in this discussion trade stocks? If so, you are sinning - because you are gambling. There is no difference between the two - no matter how you rationalize it, in the end, you COULD LOSE your money when trading stocks. <BR/><BR/>I might be crazy - jury is still out on that one, bro... however, I have come to have a real distaste in my mouth for those who continue to live under law when we are free because of grace. At the same time, I'm not sure it's a topic to continue to debate... again - you will be in glory and so will I - THAT is the most important part of this whole interaction...<BR/><BR/>btw, is it a bull or bear market today?Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139720307279442632006-02-11T20:58:00.000-08:002006-02-11T20:58:00.000-08:00I hate being misunderstood - but I can deal with i...I hate being misunderstood - but I can deal with it.<BR/><BR/>Wesley and Augustine are great guys - but they are not Jesus. I give far less credibility to their comments than that of God's Word.<BR/><BR/>I will continue to live 100% free in Christ - which does not mean (and I never said) it means you can do whatever you want without consequences. It simply means I am free in Christ.<BR/><BR/>When Christ died, I died with Him. When He raised, I raised with Him. I am a new creation - the old is gone, the new has come. We are free from the law, from the power of sin. We are no longer bound by the fears of men. All of this is because of Christ.<BR/><BR/>Because I love Him, I will enter into certain activities and refrain from others - but it's because I am free that I do this - it has nothing to do with the law that has been abolished. <BR/><BR/>I'm not ready to die on the hill and say gamblin is a sin... but I'm also not condoning it - it's more of an illness than anything else... if someone drives over the speed limit - it is a "sin" technically. How far do we take this condemning of each other? <BR/><BR/>Again - didn't Jesus take care of that on the cross?<BR/><BR/>No more from me on this - we'll all laugh about this one day in heaven.<BR/><BR/>Unless we gamble and go to hell - which we're free to do...Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139704260138488522006-02-11T16:31:00.000-08:002006-02-11T16:31:00.000-08:00thanks for the input, Ben.Additionally, although I...thanks for the input, Ben.<BR/><BR/>Additionally, although I have yet to determine is gambling is an outright sin itself, it does not excuse the fact that in many cases gambling is against the law, it carries the appearance of evil, it leads to the association with the wrong people, it can cause others to stumble, it is not beneficial though permissible, it can lead to addiction, it is done without faith, and isn't necessarily Christ-honoring behavior. Therefore, gambling is not something a Christian ought to do, even if it can't conceivably be identified as an outright sin (Romans 13:1-2; Ephesians 5:3; 1 Corinthians 15:33; 1 Corinthians 8:13; 1 Corinthians 6:12; Romans 14:23; Philippians 1:20). From this perspective, then, gambling is a sin even though it may not be directly called a sin in the Scriptures.<BR/><BR/>All further discussion before this comment was done to determine whether or not gambling is directly (as opposed to indirectly) called a sin, but this does not excuse the fact that if it is indirectly associated with sin that it is morally wrong for the Christian.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for your work and words.<BR/><BR/>JamesJames Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139703237944091822006-02-11T16:13:00.000-08:002006-02-11T16:13:00.000-08:00James--- too many texts to deal with here are two ...James--- too many texts to deal with here are two to start with--- consider the theology of stewardship implied in Ps. 24.1-2. Its not our money!!!! We must do what pleases him and furthers his cause with it. <BR/><BR/>Consider carefully Gen. 1.28-29-- the task of human being is to fill, subdue, and rule over the world. All this requires work of one kind or another. Consider as well Gen. 2.15--- we are the caretakers of the earth. I point all this out to make clear that 'work' is not the curse. It is the original task God has set for us, and to seek to circumvent that task by gambling so that "I won't have to work any more" is to circumvent some of the primary functions for which we were created--- work produces fruit, offspring, filling the earth, subduing it, caretaking. Nowhere is there a theology of retirement in the Bible. <BR/><BR/>I would suggest you read the stuff on interest rates and loaning money as well in the Pentateuch. Remember throwing pearls (including hard earned dollars) before swine ( or swindlers) is not an option.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139695690545659052006-02-11T14:08:00.000-08:002006-02-11T14:08:00.000-08:00just a few things to note:Christ said that did not...just a few things to note:<BR/><BR/>Christ said that did not come to abolish or do away with the Law but to fulfill and complete it.<BR/><BR/>James also refers to the perfect law of liberty, which is the Law in my understanding<BR/><BR/>This has been a very good on-going conversation<BR/>However, I would like to pursue it further than this blog will be able to allow<BR/><BR/>Ben, would you be so kind as to give me some of your best proof-texts for gambling as a sin, or all if you can, and i will pursue this issue further in my own studies?<BR/><BR/>Thanks to all,<BR/><BR/>JamesJames Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139694725826478702006-02-11T13:52:00.000-08:002006-02-11T13:52:00.000-08:00Hi Dan:One last time with gusto--- this has been a...Hi Dan:<BR/><BR/>One last time with gusto--- this has been a good exchange. <BR/><BR/>Of course Jesus' death and resurrection makes a difference. We now have the fullness of grace which enables us to better love and obey God as part of our free response to what we have received. <BR/><BR/>It is simply untrue however that the OT is all about Law and the NT is all about grace. God was gracious before Jesus came, and there is certainly Law in the NT as well. <BR/><BR/>There is something fundamentally wrong with a piety that has an allergic reaction to what God says we "must" do. Jesus did not promise us no yoke of commands--- he promised us a light one, and that he would help us bear it. <BR/><BR/>If I am understanding you rightly, you seem to think I believe God is compelling me to do what is right. Nope--- I am not an Augustinian or a Calvinist. God is however 'requiring' me to do quite a lot of things, but of course my response is up to me. That doesn't make an appropriate response optional So perhaps we agree on that point. <BR/><BR/>What I find dangerous is not the freedom we have in Christ. I find dangerous the implication that since Christ has set us free we are not 'required' to do anything. <BR/><BR/>As John Wesley says, all the commandments of God are covered promises---God enables us to do what he requires us to do. Or as Augustine says--- "give what you command o Lord, and then command whatever you will". <BR/><BR/>It is a mistake to pit faith over against works--- as James says "faith without works is dead" Such an antithesis isn't Biblical faith. More importantly, faith without obedience is not genuine Biblical faith either. <BR/><BR/>"Trust and obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus, than to trust and obey." <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139684962644005852006-02-11T11:09:00.000-08:002006-02-11T11:09:00.000-08:00Ben - does Jesus' death and ressurrection make any...Ben - does Jesus' death and ressurrection make any difference between an "Old Testment" way of life vs. a "New Testament" way of life? <BR/><BR/>Does living on THIS side of the cross alter any aspect of what the Old Testament teaches?<BR/><BR/>And - I stand by what I said - yes, Ben, you ARE free to do whatever you want to do in life - however, every choice you make (or I make) will bring with it certain ramifications... as I said, if I TRULY love Jesus, then I will not make CERTAIN choices in my freedom - but that is VERY different from living under the legalistic hand of a legalistic God who won't LET me do certain things... In other words - the moment we have restrictions placed upon us, we are no longer really free...<BR/><BR/>I also stand by my statement that no matter what you may believe about grace & law, and what I may believe about the same topic - we with BOTH be living eternally in glory because we BOTH follow Christ as our Lord and Savior.Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139661845339070742006-02-11T04:44:00.000-08:002006-02-11T04:44:00.000-08:00Well Dan, I can only say this. If by freedom all ...Well Dan, I can only say this. <BR/><BR/>If by freedom all you mean is, I have a choice about my behavior, of course that is true. Its not a Biblical definition of freedom, but its true. <BR/><BR/>And it is also true that it is grace which has set us free from the bondage of sin--- that also is true. <BR/><BR/>What is certainly not true is that God has freed you to do whatever you might want, or have the power of choice to do--- that's certainly about as untrue a definition of Biblical freedom as I could imagine. <BR/><BR/>Freedom in the Biblical sense has nothing to do with a self-centered right of self-expression or self-directed action. God did not free us for autonomy, he freed us for loving relationships with God and with each other. And relationships always in the Bible have boundaries. <BR/><BR/>I am not sure which Evangelicals you may be talking about, but most of the one's I know are certainly not legalists. I would suggest, since you have cited the Psalms, that you sit down and read Psalm 119. What it says is as true for Christians as it was for the Psalm--- the Law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul. Its words are like honey in my mouth. <BR/><BR/>It may seem a puzzle but even love is commanded in the Bible, indeed it is the great commandment, and what is being referred to is making a decision of the will and putting one's self into active obedience. <BR/><BR/>As for dancing I love dancing as well. One of the things worth dancing about, is that I don't have to make up life's rules as I go along, nor do I have to believe the myth that I am free to do so. <BR/><BR/>God has shown me the path that saves, and the behavior that pleases Him. It is a joy to go down that road, a joy that goes well beyond the fleeting sense that I am free to choose whatever I want to do. That's a rather American definition of freedom, but its not a Biblical one.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139634463672647332006-02-10T21:07:00.000-08:002006-02-10T21:07:00.000-08:00Hi Ben,There is a lot I have not studied. But I am...Hi Ben,<BR/>There is a lot I have not studied. But I am well-studied in spite of my need to study more. <BR/><BR/>I've discovered a secret, Ben - it's called grace. That is a dangerous word, because the moment you use it around evangelicals, when talking about freedom, everyone gets nervous because they think you are talking about living life without any boundaries.<BR/><BR/>That is not what I am talking about - because that is not what the Bible teaches.<BR/><BR/>But the Bible ALSO does not teach that we are to be trapped in a type of "do's and don't" mentality that many believers really do live by... which is sad. <BR/><BR/>If gambling is a "sin" as you say (and I am not saying it is or isn't - yet) then which of the following is ALSO a sin?<BR/>> smoking<BR/>> drinking<BR/>> cussing<BR/>> gossipping<BR/>> "borrowing" office supplies from your place of business.<BR/>> using the internet at work for non-work-related activities<BR/>> taking a 70-minute lunch "hour"<BR/>> wearing jeans and a t-shirt to church<BR/>> driving over the speed limit<BR/><BR/>You get my point... what DETERMINES that something like gambling is a sin? And, more importantly, what IS "gambling?" Is stock trading gamblinb? Is playing poker with buddies when no money is invovled gambling? If you play for pennies only have you now stepped over the line of "gambling?"<BR/><BR/>At some point, we end up creating rules that actually go beyond what God has already set up for us... and, in fact, this is the very thing Christ died for - our freedom! <BR/><BR/>See, my point is this... (and you won't like it right away - but sleep on it...) I am 100% completely FREE to do whatever I want - I really am! If I want to rob a bank, I can! If I want to smoke a cigar, I can! If I want to gamble away my mortgage, I can! If I want to drink 5 quarts of tequilla, I can! <BR/><BR/>But before I do any of those free things I am "allowed" to do, I have to ask a few questions...<BR/><BR/>1) If I truly am a follower of Christ, do I really WANT to do those things? Is that really where my passions lie?<BR/><BR/>2) Do those activities please God and further His kingdom?<BR/><BR/>3) Will doing those things bring me closer to Christ?<BR/><BR/>See - we can't categorize things as "do's and dont's" because that is NOT true "freedom." The issue comes down to where our HEART resides in all of this... people live by do's and dont's but are NEVER truly free - they are in bondage to LAW. And if the Son has set us free, we are free indeed! <BR/><BR/>This is how I live. I am not saying you must live this way, but amazingly, we will both be dancing in heaven one day!Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139615267861218322006-02-10T15:47:00.000-08:002006-02-10T15:47:00.000-08:00P.S. to Dan--- I am also a musician as well as a N...P.S. to Dan--- I am also a musician as well as a NT scholar, so I am glad there is something else we have in common.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139615072612708802006-02-10T15:44:00.000-08:002006-02-10T15:44:00.000-08:00Dan: No attempt to be condescending, and if it ca...Dan: <BR/><BR/>No attempt to be condescending, and if it came across that way, I am sorry. Put it down to the fact that you can't tell tone from this cold medium. You came across as an anti-nomian, which I am relieved to hear you are not.<BR/><BR/>But I have to ask--- have you actually studied what the commentaries say about Paul's discussion of the Law of Christ, or Christ's insistence on the higher righteousness?<BR/><BR/>I quite agree of course we are indeed commanded to worship the Lord in the ways you suggest. Those commandments should be heeded as well. <BR/><BR/>Having said this, what really motivates me to do any of this is that I love God and actually want to please God, enjoy doing it, and find as the old divines say "in obedience to Him is perfect freedom". If all of theology is grace, then all of ethics and obedience is done out of gratitude for what Christ has done. <BR/><BR/>There is something very freeing about being and behaving as God desires. It is not in any way legalistic or drudgery. <BR/> <BR/>As for Gambling--- absolutely I think it is a sin, a violation of what is highest and best for a Christian person.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139610539371674602006-02-10T14:28:00.000-08:002006-02-10T14:28:00.000-08:00By the way - how does "gambling," your original qu...By the way - how does "gambling," your original question, fall into play within your lengthy discourse on law and grace? I'm still confused. Is it okay?Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139610457838998192006-02-10T14:27:00.000-08:002006-02-10T14:27:00.000-08:00Ben,Are you free to worship God with your hands ra...Ben,<BR/><BR/>Are you free to worship God with your hands raised, dancing in the isles of your church? Because the Bible TELLS us to do that. It is not "an option." If we are to be obedient, and I agree with you on that, then we need to be obedient to ALL of what the Bible clearly teaches - not just those parts that we think are important for us.<BR/><BR/>We are to shout, sing, dance, lift up hands, call out His name, tell the nations of His wonders, and many other things - most of which hardly ever occur in churches. Because people think these are optional ways to worship God if we feel like it.<BR/><BR/>But they are not. <BR/><BR/>So, before we start hammering each other about obedience, we need to be sure that we really are being honest about it.<BR/><BR/>See, Ben, this is the beginning of living under the LAW, rather than under GRACE.<BR/><BR/>I'm not in total opposition to what you say - but I have seen too many believers who live as SLAVES because they don't understand freedom.<BR/><BR/>One more thing - you spoke pretty condescendingly to me in your post. I'm not sure why you chose to do this, but I doubt your credentials are so superior to mine that you should be afforded the freedom to speak to me as you did.<BR/><BR/>And, I'm still keeping a link to this blog on my blog because I like the way iron sharpens iron.<BR/><BR/>Blessings.Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139607446713402112006-02-10T13:37:00.000-08:002006-02-10T13:37:00.000-08:00Sorry Dan You seem to have mistaken obedience, whi...Sorry Dan <BR/><BR/>You seem to have mistaken obedience, which is not optional for legalism. <BR/><BR/>The question about freedom is free from what, and the answer is 1) freedom from the bondage of sin and 2) freedom from works of the Mosaic Law (we are not under the Mosaic covenant any longer). This by no means connotes "freedom from obedience to any and all divine requirements." <BR/><BR/>It would be nice if in fact all Christians were mature enough not to need to be commanded to do what they must and ought to do, but alas, it is not so. Indeed, the NT is littered with the reminder that we are not mature as we ought to be, and do indeed require instructions and even commands. As Paul says to Philemon, while he would rather persuade, he is perfectly prepared to command and he does so frequently. <BR/><BR/>I would suggest you go and read a good commentary on Galatians, 'the Magna Carta of Christian freedom'. You will discover that in that very document Paul enunicates very clearly the Law of Christ for Christians to obey which involves: 1) obedience to those parts of the Ten Commandments that are reaffirmed by Christ; 2) obedience to the new commands of Jesus' 3) obedience to the apostolic teachings of various sorts. <BR/><BR/>This is precisely why Paul speaks in Romans of the obedience of faith--- which means the obedience that flows from faith-- as a brief glance at Rom. 12-15 will show. <BR/><BR/>Ethical requirements are not optional extras for the Christian life. When Jesus said 'no adultery' he did not mean--- "I highly suggest you do not behave this way". <BR/><BR/>Of course it is true that in matters adaiaphora (things indifferent like choice of clothes etc) we have freedom to do as we like so long as we do it without causing others to stumble or be scandalized. Of course it is also true that in addition to the commandments in the NT we also have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But nowhere in the NT is it ever suggested that freedom in Christ means antonomianism, freedom from obedience to God in Christ, much less freedom to do whatever we please. <BR/><BR/>No indeed, we are free to do what pleases God, whether voluntarily or in response to a command. <BR/><BR/>It appears you have badly misunderstood what the NT says about freedom in Christ. Your view does not comport with that of any of the great reformers-- not even Luther.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139606108039946612006-02-10T13:15:00.000-08:002006-02-10T13:15:00.000-08:00Hi Ben,I appreciate your comments about us being u...Hi Ben,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your comments about us being under the "Law" of Christ - however - Christ set us free - completely. This means no more law. Period. End of story. Paul does make it very clear that we are not to ABUSE our freedom - however - we ARE free, that cannot be denied. Christ totally and completely accomplished our total freedom on the cross - or he accomplished NOTHING. There is not middle ground there - we are either free or not. <BR/><BR/>See, it's actually a lot easier to live under the law. I CAN do this, I CAN'T do that... blah blah blah - no need for our own sense of ownership in what Christ has done for us. In fact, we are "off the hook" under the law. That's why it is so appealing to so many believers who have not figured out they are free... I can live with a "do/don't" list a lot easier than I can live with total freedom - cuz total freedom means living responsibly with what Christ has done for me.<BR/><BR/>And - I am free! Completely. Totally. Fully.<BR/><BR/>Because of what Chrsit did on the cross. <BR/><BR/>There is no other option.Dan McGowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09523180205289209777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1139576275155921732006-02-10T04:57:00.000-08:002006-02-10T04:57:00.000-08:00Thanks one and all for the good chat. I do not hav...Thanks one and all for the good chat. <BR/><BR/>I do not have a problem with hunting for food, especially when some animals in preserves need culling from time to time. Hunting for so-called sport is another question. It would be a sport if the deer had guns and could shoot back. Now that would be a challenge. I suppose one could look at the hunting fee as paying for the 'sporting' experience, not for the deer themselves.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I do want to say to Dan that you seem to have forgotten that we are under the Law od Christ, which should not be contrasted with grace, because it is grace which enables us to obey it. <BR/><BR/>Of course as Paul makes clear, the heart of the Law of Christ is loving God and neighbor, a point Jesus makes as well. And certainly Jesus expected us to live by his ethical pronouncements such as the Sermon on the Mount. <BR/><BR/>It will simply not do to say 'lets not be legalistic since we are under grace.' Why in the world would we think that God requires less of us under grace than previously under the Mosaic Law? Jesus says to whom more is given more is required, and he also reminded us he expected our righteousness to be greater than that of the Pharisees. The only real question is which commandments and their implications must we obey to honor Christ and the NT writers? This is not legalism, this is obedience to the one whom we love and are called to follow.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.com