tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post7352146040078806041..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: THE VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE—THE ISSUE OF CONVERSION AND EMOTION PART ONEBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-47539021018225558922009-02-09T12:41:00.000-08:002009-02-09T12:41:00.000-08:00Excellent post.Fist, regarding reason, I believe D...Excellent post.<BR/>Fist, regarding reason, I believe Dean Swift said Man is merely capable of reason....<BR/><BR/>The old versus new lights discussion wages on: do we 'validate' a conversion by the indwelling transformation of the new Gospel believer by the Holy Spirit, or do look for works, which eventually leads to legalism. Old lights mistrust the power of the Holy Spirit and must see 'fruits' of the Spirit to belive it, but this begs the question that one can perform 'fruit' without being transformed from within. Of course the new lights like to emphasize the validity of the emotion and the exspense of any outward sign of an inward transformation.<BR/><BR/>Doesn't this all boil down to how the Church has privileged personal salvation against being in Christ?<BR/><BR/>Christ and Paul both stress liberation and freedom in Christ, but we distrust that and seek to re-enter the jail, safe and secure in legalism. Aren't Jesus's parables and Paul's exhortation to work out your own salvation ways of teaching us to let the Spirit transform you, so you will bear fruit? I freely admit, I'm reluctant to judge except in extreme situations--ie the philandering women you mention.Michhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16898202278726987827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-24662018784947075742009-02-04T23:12:00.000-08:002009-02-04T23:12:00.000-08:00Good question.I think Ignatius, who said that love...Good question.<BR/><BR/>I think Ignatius, who said that love is best shown in deeds, not words, might say the proof would be in the pudding (or the fruit :)crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-2113466092307431132009-02-04T23:02:00.000-08:002009-02-04T23:02:00.000-08:00Some people are more cerebral, and reason is their...Some people are more cerebral, and reason is their strong suit. Others find strength in their emotions. Paraphrasing the Apostle Paul, I would say we are strongest in our weakness.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, I think it suggests the existence of “good fruit” when we see the cerebral type shedding tears of repentance and the more emotional type using reason to understand the depth of his or her religious experience.Jim Geigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07580212569006097011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-23626600581368466162009-02-04T20:01:00.000-08:002009-02-04T20:01:00.000-08:00Galatians 3.26-27 speaks of becoming a child of Go...Galatians 3.26-27 speaks of becoming a child of God by faith and of our faith leading us to be baptized into Christ. Since Ephesians 1.3 says all spiritual blessings are in Christ, it would follow that one is converted when one's faith leads that person to be baptized into Christ. The point in time would be baptism, which was preceded by faith, repentance, and confession of faith in Christ. Nothing subjective about that.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04439601877751595513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-69282230014622673072009-02-04T19:11:00.000-08:002009-02-04T19:11:00.000-08:00Hi CrystalOf course the problem is-- who gets to d...Hi Crystal<BR/><BR/>Of course the problem is-- who gets to define what counts as faith, love, and hope affirming. <BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-73336691975685480752009-02-04T18:52:00.000-08:002009-02-04T18:52:00.000-08:00I've been trying to use Ignatius of Loyola's rules...I've been trying to use Ignatius of Loyola's rules of discernment to evaluate religious experience. He's like Paul - experiences that create a growth in love, faith, and hope pass muster.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-57505584771957580012009-02-04T10:51:00.000-08:002009-02-04T10:51:00.000-08:00I'm sorry, you are right. I was remembering what I...I'm sorry, you are right. I was remembering what I had written in my own blog entry this morning....goes to show how memory works and how we are responsive to something that triggers our past experiences...just what you are studying...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-84675773990828923012009-02-04T10:38:00.000-08:002009-02-04T10:38:00.000-08:00Emotions and feelings are fine when it comes to ou...Emotions and feelings are fine when it comes to our spiritual life and conversion...but one cannot trust in them.<BR/><BR/>These feelings or experiences may be from God...and then agin, they may be from the devil.<BR/><BR/>St. Paul tells us that "the devil can come all dressed up as an angel of light."<BR/><BR/>The devil may use feeling as and emotions and "proofs" as a way to get us not to act or trust on the basis of faith, but rather something else.<BR/><BR/>I believe that is why Christ instituted the sacraments. So that we could actually have something tangible (extra nos) that we truat in absolutely that comes from Him, outside of ourselves.<BR/><BR/>Great post!<BR/><BR/> Thanks very much, Ben!Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16504238047156860312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-30031317142686597092009-02-04T10:27:00.000-08:002009-02-04T10:27:00.000-08:00Hi Angie:Actually I didn't edit anything out. My o...Hi Angie:<BR/>Actually I didn't edit anything out. My only two options are publish or reject. <BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-33072038474891418662009-02-04T10:10:00.000-08:002009-02-04T10:10:00.000-08:00As a card-carrying Pentecostal (Church of God, Cle...As a card-carrying Pentecostal (Church of God, Cleveland, TN), I agree with you that a real spiritual experience needs to be validated by a real change in a person's life. When I see someone "slain in the Spirit", as we say, I have to wonder whether God really did it, or whether that person was trying to make something happen. I do believe God can and does knock people down to get their attention, but I do worry when people think that is the only way God can work.<BR/><BR/>I also think speaking in tongues is also overrated. It is valuable, but certainly not the most important thing I do as a Christian. I'd much rather know that I am growing in His grace, rather than pursue a specific spiritual experiencePhilip Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12980312922107569268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-34300291832731657752009-02-04T09:16:00.000-08:002009-02-04T09:16:00.000-08:00Oh, I forgot to define 'inhibit" and "enlarge"...i...Oh, I forgot to define 'inhibit" and "enlarge"...inhibitian is defined by limiting understanding to one aspect of understanding, such as one discipline, or one tradition, or one aspect of a person (personality, personal history, desires, behavior, etc.), etc.<BR/><BR/>Enlarge means that one is understanding that one's understanding is limited to a speicific disicipline, or view, or tradition,...this is the "end" of intellectural development in commitment. But, this does not mean that one's commitment will be translated by someone other than the individual himself. He must come to terms with what is thinks is most worthy of the commitment of his time and efforts. This is a personal decision and choice.<BR/><BR/>Ethics can be applicable to any discipline, so this is what I think that religion should be about, not experience, per se.Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-77886524833273822542009-02-04T08:55:00.000-08:002009-02-04T08:55:00.000-08:00Hi Angie: Thanks for your comments. Actually you a...Hi Angie: Thanks for your comments. Actually you are partly wrong. My comments are based on the analysis of Christian conversions, not primarily on the basis of analyzing Biblical texts. And of course you will have to define what 'inhibit' and 'enlarge' mean since these are value terms, not neutral anthropological language. Reason is by no means the only thing that can be appealed to above experience. There is, as you mention tradition, and in particular sacred historical traditions, some of which is Scripture. It is not a scientific procedure to eliminate any source of data apriori, even if it comes from a revelation. <BR/><BR/>Blessings<BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-82025503747061934532009-02-04T08:44:00.000-08:002009-02-04T08:44:00.000-08:00Look forward to the following part/s. I'm in agree...Look forward to the following part/s. I'm in agreement with what you have written. I especially like the statement - you can tell the root of it when you see the fruit of it. My own conversion was at age 11 - it was not a highly emotional experience, although I am a moderately emotional person. I will not negate the simplicity of what happened at age 11, but a more significant re-dedication happened at age 18. Another interesting and totally unexpected breakthrough in my spiritual journey came at age 50 - dealing with unexamined emotional trauma that happened at age 10 which was boxed away in the attic of my memories because it was too painful. That's when I finally 'got it' how much my heavenly Father loves me! This breakthrough was more emotional as I no longer feared expressing my gratitude. It was and is all a part of God's amazing grace in the life of each individual to meet all our needs, all in His awesome timing, along every step of our journey. Hopefully growth continues to happen to the end of our days until we are perfected in HIM!<BR/><BR/>Thanks so much for your post. God bless!Karinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12953073381987950597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-8637875354826694272009-02-04T07:42:00.000-08:002009-02-04T07:42:00.000-08:00Humans are created to have religious desires and e...Humans are created to have religious desires and experiences. By insinuation, we deduce that there must be a God...but this is not "provable".<BR/><BR/>I do not think that anyone can determine how another human being is to experience God. Your basis is on Scripture. My basis is on psychology, sociology and anthropology. Part of man's identifying to a culture is his religious tradition. Some traditions inhibit life, and others enlarge life. The enlargement of life is what I think religion should be about, not a narrowing focus based on one traditon or text. Therefore, religion should be about ethics, not experience, or texts.<BR/><BR/>Reason is not "god", and yet reason is as aspect of God's image within man. It is only when we absolutize one aspect of man's image-bearing that it becomes problematic.And this also includes "faith traditions".<BR/><BR/>Traditions hold up text, and cultural expression, while experience is contained within these aspects of culture.<BR/><BR/>Reason is the only aspect of man that can be appealed to that is "above" tradition, culture or religion. And reason is the education that one attains in all areas of life.<BR/><BR/>In Kohlburg's moral development his "end" is justice, while his protege's was "self and other". Justice and relationship, which is social contract is what moral development and ethics is about. And ethics covers all of life from business, marriage, foreign poligy, international relation, human rights, etc. Because, ethics if about relationships...Angie Van De Merwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617299120618867829noreply@blogger.com