tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post7070051428057495611..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: What Price Relevance, What Effect Effectiveness?Ben Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-23825335649418503692008-08-05T10:06:00.000-07:002008-08-05T10:06:00.000-07:00This article and it's comments are both interestin...This article and it's comments are both interesting and controversial (for some). I'm currently in Youth Ministry and found the most educated and well thought out response to be from Galen Rice. His answer begs the question Dr. Witherington, Have you played Halo 3, me thinks not. My friends and I have used video games inside and outside the church. They have helped connect me to an individual who has no relationship with Christ but through playing Halo 3 with him . I have also been able to connect with one of the parents of my students, a very rare and hard feat to accomplish in youth ministry, in my opinion.<BR/><BR/>Another advantage of using video games in ministry is it gives students the chance to shine. Some don't shine on they football field or volleyball court but they can play the heck out of some Guitar Hero and it gives them a chance to connect with and be admired by the "jock" or "brain" because they're amazed at what they just saw. If you really want to be amazed go to your local arcade and watch some kids play DDR, it'll blow your mind. <BR/>Dr Witherington you stated "I do have a major problem with a game that takes endless hours to play, or win, and is so absorbing that it encourages the worst sort of narcissism, and ignoring of the rest of reality, including numerous important sorts of interactions that should be going on at a Christian youth event."<BR/><BR/>Have you ever played Monopoly, Risk, Chess? These also take hours and can get very competitive.<BR/><BR/>We lived in a messed up world, where students are bombarded by images that tell them what to do and who to be, but if I can use a video game to get someone who might otherwise not come in a church and tell them Jesus loves them just the way they are and I do too, I think it's worth it. In the end it's a way to connect, have common ground <BR/>and share the love story of Jesus Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-35876088676902576902007-10-11T11:09:00.000-07:002007-10-11T11:09:00.000-07:00Interesting discussion, there is further debate at...Interesting discussion, there is further debate at <A HREF="http://gamepolitics.com/2007/10/08/faith-community-debates-halo-3-youth-ministry/" REL="nofollow">Game Politics</A> and the venerable <A HREF="http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/09/1429240" REL="nofollow">Slashdot</A>.<BR/><BR/>The commentary (particularly at the sites above) is sometimes quite openly hostile toward Christianity - this is not uncommon amongst the youth community today. I wanted to write a little about why I think this is the case.<BR/><BR/>I believe society has become far more cynical of "messages of goodwill" and young people - quite rightly - demand more concrete evidence and credibility before committing to a belief.<BR/><BR/>This cynicism has developed out of necessity and I believe it is "a good thing". One only has to look at the widespread "good will" messages (with hidden motives) and false promises that we are bombarded with every day from marketers, politicans, et al to see how this cynicism has been nurtured.<BR/><BR/>- "Our product/service will make you a better person!"<BR/>- "Vote for X and build a better Britain!"<BR/>- "Catch the monkey and win a FREE iPod!"<BR/>- "There's something for everyone at Mecca Bingo!"<BR/>- "If you download MP3s, you are funding terrorism!"<BR/><BR/>When a young person rejects Christianity, they are not saying "I do not wish to be a good person" or "I do not believe in God". They are simply applying the same level of cynicism and questioning to something often promoted in a very similar way to - frankly - a miracle cure, a politician's manifesto or a bingo club.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I attended Sunday school in the UK until my mid-teens and maintain a strong interest in religion as a humanitarian subject. When asked to Confirm, I chose not to. My reasoning was that I believed in the common-sense principles behind Christianity, but was put off by the inconsistencies and uncertain history of the Bible. Therefore, I decided to live my life by commonsense, hold respect for Christianity as a belief alongside others, but I couldn't commit to unquestioning adherence.<BR/><BR/>Were I to make my decision now, as young people today must, I would also be strongly influenced by the examples of extreme negative effects of all-consuming belief in a particular religion that we see today. If my faith in particular teachings were so strong that I was prepared to detonate myself in a public place, killing hundreds, was commonsense not a better way to live my life? <BR/><BR/>Take Scientology too as an example of a vile cult that is marketed using the similar methods to Christian preaching. How is a young person to know with conviction the difference between your typical friendly-friendly leaflet-brandishing youth group leader and a smiling face offering free "personality tests"?<BR/><BR/>Without a means to prove credibility over the sea of other "believe me!" claims that young people are exposed to and must weigh up every day, Christianity will face the same scrutiny, suspicion and sometimes outright hostility as any other idea.<BR/><BR/>I hope this is a useful insight into the rise of Agnosticism?B Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04118119153804836062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-38807966525067539782007-10-10T21:35:00.000-07:002007-10-10T21:35:00.000-07:00I'm a gamer. It's a hobby -- even an academic int...I'm a gamer. It's a hobby -- even an academic interest; so I thought I'd add some thoughts.<BR/><BR/>As with any medium for entertainment and artistic expression, there are all different kinds, and they can be abused. I personally don't care for Halo, because I find first-person shooters to be boring. <BR/><BR/>There seems to be a great bit of concern here about the amount of time that one spends playing these sorts of games. I honestly don't think that this is an issue for most normal people. I play RPG's (role-playing games), such as Final Fantasy, Shenmue, and the like, and those can 30-60 hours to complete. One does not generally complete such games in one or two sittings. It usually takes me weeks, or even months, to complete such a game. RPG's, in particular, are more like interactive stories. Few people will criticize someone for reading too many fiction books. It's similar. The focus in such games is typically on story and presentation, with some "battles" thrown in and interaction. Often games, especially the more modern, story-based ones, are amalgams of disparate media.<BR/><BR/>Someone here mentioned Virtua Fighter 4, a game which I've played since 2001, I believe. This game, in particular, while it might seem to the uninitiated as mindless violence, is actually very deep and skill-oriented. The people who play such games are focused on improving their skill level, not the act of beating up a character, per se.<BR/><BR/>As for the competitive aspects of games, I think that the social dynamics are a bit more complex than most people realize. Yes, competitive videogames have winners and losers, but, in general, I have found that it is all in good spirit. It is a means by which people gather to do something which they mutually find to be fun. It isn't necessarily about one person's asserting his supremacy over others, though that, of course, can occur in anything, depending on the attitudes of the people involved.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I don't think that due credit is given to videogames as being a legitimate means of artistic expression. Today's "games" have complex storylines, literary and religious allusions, overarching themes, psychological premises, and a whole host of sophisticated forms of expression which a segment of the gaming population -- as with certain subsets of those who appreciate other artistic media -- can appreciate. The game Shenmue II, for example, is designed to give one the experience of living in a different culture, while being confronted with tidbits of philosophy from that culture; the game Rez is an attempt to simulate the effect of synesthesia.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As with anything, we should be careful with how much time we put into it, relative to other activities. Anyone who watches television, does work, or even reads the Bible, to the exclusion of everyone else should stop and look around. But videogames aren't special in this regard.Alvin Grissom IIhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00387400470469389655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-47521857598493027452007-10-10T14:37:00.000-07:002007-10-10T14:37:00.000-07:00We allowed video games at Church lock-ins but requ...We allowed video games at Church lock-ins but required that they all be general audience acceptable. No killing, nudity, etc... We teach though everything we do, not just in the devotional tagged on a violent game playing session. What do we teach by playing Halo? Do we show that we are cool or desperate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-68569346707445641132007-10-10T14:12:00.000-07:002007-10-10T14:12:00.000-07:00This is an excellent discussion. I appreciate the...This is an excellent discussion. I appreciate the courtesy and tact.<BR/><BR/>I am a solo pastor of an SBC church and ran a video game store as I attended seminary. <BR/><BR/>Ben, I think that your comment about rules against taunting or excessive aggression in football is apt, but certainly those rules could also be instituted at youth meetings. Men thrive on competition, and build community by mutual achievement. Certainly video games can be an avenue for that, and we must also admit that there are other avenues that can be used as well.<BR/><BR/>My only caution would to be to resist the urge to make blanket assessments of video games. Take each game as it comes and make intelligent decisions about what is acceptable and what is not. In my life, life-like graphic violence, nudity, or sexual themes are not acceptable to present to my kids or by extension my youth. I'm okay with a Madden tournament; I'm on the edge with Guitar Hero (lyrics can get over-the-line); no-go for Resident Evil (lots of occult, reincarnation, living-dead, lots of language...). I would probably err on the side of caution with Halo for youth.<BR/><BR/> Jesus is incredibly concerned with the holiness of his church, but also took His message to the homes of tax collectors and prostitutes. He took Himself to the world rather than making the world come to Him. I understand the heart of the pastor who is trying to reach out to kids and give themselves an opportunity to speak into those kids lives.<BR/><BR/>I take what I would see as a balanced approach to gaming. My rule is that the more realistic a game is, the more controls I place on it. If I tell my son that he can't play any video games (like a <I>Star Wars</I> game) because there is violence, I should be consistent and also disallow my young daughter's playing dress-up fairy princesses because the magic wand she uses could be construed as magic.<BR/><BR/>We play Halo for adults (I'm terrible at the game...); with kids I am a little more reluctant. However, if it is done correctly (parental permission, controls for over-competitiveness, a redemptive reason for the event) then I would allow another's conscience to be their own guide.<BR/><BR/>Serving Him with you,<BR/><BR/>John CorreiaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13538452981903319673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-16949196221018740862007-10-10T09:33:00.000-07:002007-10-10T09:33:00.000-07:00Very interesting post. I appreciate this. As a p...Very interesting post. I appreciate this. As a parent to a young "gamer", I realize that I will be faced with shepherding my child into making what choice would honor Christ most in his choice of games. I try to encourage his gaming towards sports games, but he is drawn towards the "shooters". Why is that? Not too long ago I was "hooked" on Socom - playing online. I had to give it up. The standard I set for my son, was different than the one I was living. Initially, the most disturbing part of playing an online game is listening to other players, many of whom are teenagers, talk. Their obsenity, profanity and the like were both shocking and offensive. I had to play without any volume. The whole anonymity of it, I think somewhat appeals to the youth. I believe they can act and talk in a way that they NEVER would be able to otherwise is an overlooked issue. If you have kids who play online games, particularly games with headsets - their minds are being filled with sin. If you don't think these things effect your children, you should re-think this.AChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03781074423578566649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-16836855356471956492007-10-10T07:44:00.000-07:002007-10-10T07:44:00.000-07:00What I find most disturbing about Halo in the yout...What I find most disturbing about Halo in the youth ministry is the church's willingness to become "relevant." I think the church is called to be a witness to the world through its very lifestyle. Attracting as many youth as possible for the sake of "the ministry" does not encourage true discipleship in Christ. The use of mature games such as Halo for entertainment should be weighed carefully by members of a church based on their own conscience--- for themselves and for those they influence. But attracting non-Christians by publicly endorsing a product like Halo not only undermines the Church's witness to the world, it contradicts Christ' very message of sacrificial love.Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07477749214680646668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-84420208442158195992007-10-09T16:31:00.000-07:002007-10-09T16:31:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington-This is a very intriguing post, a...Dr. Witherington-<BR/><BR/>This is a very intriguing post, article and discussion on your blog. I'm very curious to know whether or not you have personally played Halo 3 (or either of its predecessors). If not, have you watched others play any of the Halo games for any significant amount of time?<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I'm most interested to know if you are basing your opinion on playing a game like this on your personal convictions drawn from your own interaction w/this game, those you know and trust and their interaction w/the game, an article in the NY Times or the rating (M for mature) given to the game by the Entertainment Software Rating Board. <BR/><BR/>I personally don't base my opinion or convictions of a movie (or video game) solely on the rating system b/c I have seen MANY PG-13 movies that definitely should have been rated R. I have seen MANY R movies that should have been NC-17, if not rated X. On the same note, I have seen many R movies that I personally would have rated PG-13, and many PG-13 movies that could have been rated PG. <BR/><BR/>I truly respect your thoughts, opinions and insight as I've read your blog for quite some time, but I was somewhat surprised at how adamant you are against games like this. I also found it somewhat surprising that you would essentially say that under no circumstances is a game like Halo an appropriate tool to use to get into the lives of young teenage boys.<BR/><BR/>I don't regularly play games like Halo, but I have played Halo for more than a total of 2 hours, and really don't see the same dangers that you do w/this game or games like it.<BR/><BR/>Very interested in hearing your reply...JR Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08407960647453917878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-17710436291692176332007-10-09T16:29:00.000-07:002007-10-09T16:29:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington-This is a very intriguing article...Dr. Witherington-<BR/><BR/>This is a very intriguing article and discussion on your blog. I'm very curious to know whether or not you have personally played Halo 3 (or either of its predecessors). If not, have you watched others play any of the Halo games for any significant amount of time?<BR/><BR/>To be honest, I'm most interested to know if you are basing your opinion on playing a game like this on your personal convictions drawn from your own interaction w/this game, those you know and trust and their interaction w/the game, an article in the NY Times or the rating (M for mature) given to the game by the Entertainment Software Rating Board. <BR/><BR/>I personally don't base my opinion or convictions of a movie (or video game) solely on the rating system b/c I have seen MANY PG-13 movies that definitely should have been rated R. I have seen MANY R movies that should have been NC-17, if not rated X. On the same note, I have seen many R movies that I personally would have rated PG-13, and many PG-13 movies that could have been rated PG. <BR/><BR/>I truly respect your thoughts, opinions and insight as I've read your blog for quite some time, but I was somewhat surprised at how adamant you are against games like this. I also found it somewhat surprising that you would essentially say that under no circumstances is a game like Halo an appropriate tool to use to get into the lives of young teenage boys.<BR/><BR/>I don't regularly play games like Halo, but I have played Halo for more than a total of 2 hours, and really don't see the same dangers that you do w/this game or games like it.<BR/><BR/>Very interested in hearing your reply...JR Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08407960647453917878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-63731460382116119972007-10-09T16:19:00.000-07:002007-10-09T16:19:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington,I find your post on the video gam...Dr. Witherington,<BR/><BR/>I find your post on the video game Halo 3 to be quite interesting, almost compelling.<BR/><BR/>I am a college-going Christian that has spent a good part of my growing up playing video games. My parents did not let me play Mature rated games until I was old enough, and even then, as with movies, there had to be discussions about the content. I soon joined a Christian gaming site, CCGR.org, and post reviews there under the name of iamscott. I also work at a video game store (being a child of the techno-era), and am routinely in contact with violent video games and the people that play them.<BR/><BR/>I've got to say, though, I was tracking with what you were saying (not necessarily agreeing with, but following) until you hit your comparison with the recent movie The Bourne Ultimatum. You compare a video game, which it seems is quite evident that you have not played, with a movie. They are two wholly seperate mediums that are, slowly, coming together; yet individual films and individual games cannot be compared. Granted, Bourne is a very well-made movie, and director Paul Greengrass is excellent as well, yet you fail to realize that video games are beginning to follow films.<BR/><BR/>In the early years of film, what did we see? Simple things: a train, moving. A crowded street. Slowly, there was an evolution of sorts. We started seeing epics, films that ran longer than ten to fifteen minutes. Classics were born: here you have Gone With the Wind, there you have Rear Window. And slowly, film became accepted as art. Directors such as Richard Linklater (Waking Life, A Scanner Darkly), David Lynch (Lost Highway, Mulholland Dr.), and Martin Scorcese have proved this.<BR/><BR/>Conversely, games are going through the same stages. Initially, we saw blips on a screen: Pong, Space Invaders and Asteroids. Slowly but surely, games started coming out that redefined everything: The Legend of Zelda, Super Mario Bros., and Prince of Persia. And now we're beginning to see epics, modern classics that will show what can be done in an interactive medium: the Halo trilogy, Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and Final Fantasies VII-XII.<BR/><BR/>The point being that Halo most definitely does have a defined character arc, growth that occurs beyond simple revenge ploys and schemes to kill the alien menace. Granted, many games do it better; the aforementioned Final Fantasy games, the new Prince of Persia series, and the God of War games. But those games don't sell as much as Halo does.<BR/><BR/>In regards to Lisa's comment, Halo 1 was originally going to be rated T; it was released in late 2001, and as we all know, tensions were high, and reactions to violence were, as should be expected, a little more than they should have been. Many games were revised or delayed.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Witherington, Halo 3 is a violent game. There is no doubt about that. Adult themes do not necessarily run rampant through the game, as has been implied, but violence is most definitely there. Are the "versus" modes, as you put them, intended as a sort of bloodsport? Perhaps. That's a question I would need to think about a little more. I know that I, and a few friends (including other Christians) go and play Halo 3 en masse. It doesn't make us any more violent than we are in day to day life (which is not violent at all), but it does get the testosterone flowing.<BR/><BR/>I do need to say that the thought of a pastor being so in tune with the youth as to start an outreach with this game is awesome. Dr. Witherington, there are Christian gamers. And some, including myself, play violent games. We watch violent movies. But we also love Christ, and we try to walk in His steps. If that sounds like a paradox, I'm sorry; I really can't explain it any better.<BR/><BR/>I urge you to please, visit the website I listed above, and read some reviews, or even talk to some of the people there.<BR/><BR/>Thanks a lot.<BR/><BR/>DrewDrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01709205164643106708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-44012767180007008962007-10-09T16:01:00.000-07:002007-10-09T16:01:00.000-07:00To me, the issue we should be concerned about is n...To me, the issue we should be concerned about is not the violence in these games, but the use of these games to lure people in. This mentality is typical of the "seeker-friendly" churches.<BR/><BR/>What this issue fails to address is the hostility of the unsaved towards God. Putting Halo 3 into a church and presenting it along with a Bible study isn't going to help anyone, because such a move is only appealing to people's flesh. The Bible clearly teaches that no one comes to God through Christ unless they are called by God first.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04770259854581027259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-20121771370418830452007-10-09T15:58:00.000-07:002007-10-09T15:58:00.000-07:00To me, the issue we should be concerned about is n...To me, the issue we should be concerned about is not the violence in these games, but the use of these games to lure people in. This mentality is typical of the "seeker-friendly" churches.<BR/><BR/>What this issue fails to address is the hostility of the unsaved towards God. Putting Halo 3 into a church and presenting it along with a Bible study isn't going to help anyone, because such a move is only appealing to people's flesh. The Bible clearly teaches that no one comes to God through Christ unless they are called by God first.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04770259854581027259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-21677456775209574232007-10-09T10:49:00.000-07:002007-10-09T10:49:00.000-07:00Last year I lived in the dorms of a Christian Coll...Last year I lived in the dorms of a Christian College, and spent many a night that probably would have better been spent studying playing Halo with my friends. While it does have futuristic warfare, there isn't really blood or gore. I really don't know why it was rated "M" either, but I don't think it is appropriate to be using that video game in youth groups unless there is parental consent, strictly because of the rating. <BR/><BR/>However I do think a couple things about the article are very interesting. I think, it is firstly interesting how the article singles out males as the ones playing these video games. While it is mostly males who do play these types of video games from my experience, it isn't strictly males. The other thing I noticed was in the article was the mentality of the youths, that it is "just fun blowing people up." I really don't think most people equate video game violence of this type with killing in real life. The article seems to suggest that they are quite similar. <BR/><BR/>I think that this debate on video games stems not just from trying to make churches culturally relevant, but from trying to make churches more masculine in nature. It is trying to appeal to young males, rather than any other demographic. There are other types of ministries related to other demographics and their subcultures, but this one has more of a potential for controversy because of the material. <BR/><BR/>I think the reason for the inclusion of modern culture in churches has to do with widespread mainstream culture, and a weaker Christian culture, which is considered by some to be 'effeminate.' It is a reaction to the cultural forces. I think the greater question is one regarding how influential certain cultures should be in churches.The Burdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11493000389790087209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-83986939838688688962007-10-09T10:45:00.000-07:002007-10-09T10:45:00.000-07:00I would say I have to agree with you, Dr. W.In my ...I would say I have to agree with you, Dr. W.<BR/><BR/>In my college & career group, Halo has become pretty much all that the guys in my group (excluding myself and maybe one other) do with each other. My college pastor invites everyone over, but then they spend all their time trying to see who can kill each other the most times. It was a very sad thing at our Destin trip this past summer where we had two TV's in the condo. I was walking around and in the living room, 5 or 6 guys were glued to Halo. I walked into the bedroom where the other TV was--and that's where the remaining guys were glued to Halo on that TV. There was time for us guys to actually talk to one another, but not all that much. It is something that does no good for the group at all as far as I can see, since it takes away from REAL fellowship with one another and may even irritate what fellowship there actually is; the competitiveness resulted in one guy using the f-word, among others.<BR/><BR/>This past Sunday a visiting guy to our young adults Sunday school class got up and left his small group because he got tired of talking about Halo and not having everyone's participation in that instead of discussing the lesson at hand.<BR/><BR/>I have no problem with the video games themselves; my college pastor explained the good vs. evil story and it seems like a good game to play if you're going to play video games. I also believe a Christian can responsibly view violent movies. However, when it comes to the point where it is what receives the majority of guys' free time, energy, concern, etc., then that is quite an example of idolatry--which we all struggle with but when there is a case of it that many people share with each other, it should be addressed openly.Nathan Brasfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08980703109342676626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-552315551421481922007-10-09T10:25:00.000-07:002007-10-09T10:25:00.000-07:00This need to stay relevant and hip in order to rea...This need to stay relevant and hip in order to reach teenagers has been endemic to youth ministry for the last 30 years, at least. And until maybe 10 years ago, there wasn't much evidence to prove its success, or lack thereof. Now all the stats seem to say that, in spite of the enormous time and energy spent trying to create Relevant and Cool youth ministries, the majority of kids are wandering away after they finish high school. Maybe that ought to tell us that IT ISN'T WORKING! But, instead of going back and rethinking the premise, youth ministries just keep doing the same thing, quoting the same mantras: "We're losing kids, we need to be more relevant!" What if it's the drive to be relevant that is the actual cause of so many kids wandering away? Maybe it's time that we let things like Grace, Community, Unconditional Love, Forgiveness, and Hope be the things that attract kids to our youth group, instead of our cool youth room and video game parties.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01346754802598078852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-69590899111092221572007-10-09T10:05:00.000-07:002007-10-09T10:05:00.000-07:00Thanks Dr. Witherington for your continued thought...Thanks Dr. Witherington for your continued thoughts on this issue.<BR/><BR/>I must say that I do think the analogy of football (NFL, college, high school, etc.) is appropriate when applying your questions.<BR/><BR/>Consider the questions again: "Ask yourself these questions: 1) could this game encourage me to be a more compassionate person,; 2) a more loving or forgiving person; 3) a less individualistic and more community oriented person; 4) a person less prone to anger, less prone to resort to certain inappropriate ways of resolving conflict? These are the sorts of questions one needs to be asking when evaluating such games."<BR/><BR/>How does playing football lead a person to answer these questions? More compassionate? Hardly. In football cut blocks are legal and Trent Green cut block the man who became furious with him. He became furious because his livelihood is based on healthy knees. Does the legal practice of blocking an opposing player at the knees when they are not looking encourage compassion? Does the legal practice of hitting other players as hard as you can when they are not looking encourage compassion?<BR/><BR/>How does this sort of behavior encourage us to become more loving or forgiving? It gives us ample opportunity to forgive perhaps but if we do not play there will be no need for forgiveness.<BR/><BR/>Playing football can help people become less individualistic and more community oriented but it can also work against this. Just look at the many prima donnas in college and the NFL.<BR/><BR/>Does playing football make me less prone to anger and inappropriate ways of dealing with conflict? Check out the list of suspended NFL players for off the field behavior. <BR/><BR/>No to be fair: are these men this way because they play football or do they play football because they are this way? Either way you answer the question, it appears that playing football fails all of your questions Dr. Witherington. Even if you play by the rules, which are strictly enforced, it appears to me that playing football does not meet the criteria set forth in the questions suggested by Dr. Witherington.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I love football but studied under Dr. Groothuis at Denver Seminary who believes that football is an unethical game for Christians to play and watch.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395025219841706565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-86967953985833823962007-10-09T09:14:00.000-07:002007-10-09T09:14:00.000-07:00Violence is wrong. I mean, it says that right in t...Violence is wrong. I mean, it says that right in the bible. Right after it tells us why we should kill homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB), kill women who aren't virgins on their wedding night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB), and in the story of the flood God drown the entire human race except for Noah and his ilk (but we're expected to believe God loves us anyhow. Even though he drowns us.)<BR/><BR/>You're right. Hypocrisy like playing videogames that are violent would be TOO MUCH for the church. Because there is NO hypocrisy in anything else they say.<BR/><BR/>I think the real problem is that you can't bullshit kids like you used to. Now when someone says, "Christ was a good man..." anyone with a computer can google Christ and come up with Bertrand Russell's 'Why I am Not a Christian' and get opposing viewpoints, which is something you can't do in a cloistered community. Also, the 'mankind is evil, selfish and wrong from birth' (original sin) has so many philosophical points to argue that it can lead to people rejecting it, and it's a cornerstone of the faith!<BR/><BR/>In the end, I agree. You shouldn't teach Christianity with Halo. Don't ruin Halo, and we don't need any more brainwashed people. <BR/><BR/>Also, if you pray for me, I'll use my power as a witch doctor to drag your soul straight to hell when I go, so don't do that either. Well, if you do it you just make me more powerful when I get there. Now that I think about it, I'm so lost, please pray for me? (Muhahahahah)TRAyreshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06362119850709238952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-52136000417640715522007-10-09T08:31:00.000-07:002007-10-09T08:31:00.000-07:00One other point of note:Quote: "When you play a 'V...One other point of note:<BR/><BR/>Quote: "When you play a 'Versus' sort of game, or in that sort of mode, you are in the first place setting up a scenario for individual winners and losers. There is nothing about this that builds community. We are not talking even about a 'team' sport here."<BR/><BR/>It should be pointed out that there are multiple team modes in the Halo multi player experience, from simple team scoring to "capture the flag" scenarios that require a lot of communication and cooperation.<BR/><BR/>Again, having all your facts straight about the medium you're against would significantly strengthen your argument among the people who actually play it.Alec Lanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17932263748412524884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-74366500939770019312007-10-09T08:29:00.000-07:002007-10-09T08:29:00.000-07:00I'm a youth minister. I've allowed kids play Halo ...I'm a youth minister. I've allowed kids play Halo in our youth room. I must admit I'm struggling with this happening and the message I'm delivering. I don't know the answers but I know I've been moved to prayer and meditation. I may be setting some new norms. Also, I've noticed that my kids throw on their iPods every time they come together. I have thought for awhile that action doesn't promote community. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for stirring my thoughts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453407012900518173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-61074581710354670902007-10-09T08:28:00.000-07:002007-10-09T08:28:00.000-07:00I'm a youth minister. I've allowed kids play Halo ...I'm a youth minister. I've allowed kids play Halo in our youth room. I must admit I'm struggling with this happening and the message I'm delivering. I don't know the answers but I know I've been moved to prayer and meditation. I may be setting some new norms. Also, I've noticed that my kids throw on their iPods every time they come together. I have thought for awhile that action doesn't promote community. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for stirring my thoughts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453407012900518173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-49183726004977180192007-10-09T08:26:00.000-07:002007-10-09T08:26:00.000-07:00Ben Witherington said: "Thirdly, there are numerou...Ben Witherington said: "Thirdly, there are numerous studies out there to be had about how these games affect and indeed encode violent images on young brains in various ways that going to a movie that lasts an hour or so would not do."<BR/><BR/>This is a shaky argument to try and stand on, mainly due to the terribly divided opinion among the medical community. A quick Google search will turn up several dozen studies saying that violent videogames encode violent behavior in children, and an equal number of studies picking apart the methodologies and conclusions of the first group of studies. To say the issue is decided is to base your conclusion on bias, not fact.<BR/><BR/>Quote: "Why? because of the endless repetition of the ultra fast violent scenarios, often without there being any redeeming features, plot, character development involved."<BR/><BR/>This is an excellent example of an argument based on hearsay, not direct, unbiased exposure and evaluation. The story arc of the Halo series centers around a genetically-engineered super-soldier, taken into this program without his consent, who was trained as a mindless killing machine and ends up in a war against an alien aggressor. During the course of the story, the main character changes immensely. He begins as someone who is "fighting the good fight" without question and with a definite "there are acceptable losses" attitude. As the story progresses, he changes to someone who places himself and his mission in grave danger to rescue individuals as he realizes that every life is important. He also begins working with a previously hated enemy when he realizes that the enemy has been misled and lied to and that the enemy now wishes to assist both humanity and his own race against their mutual aggressors.<BR/><BR/>Quote: "One can't say that about a movie like the Bourne Ultimatum. The violence is not only secondary to the character development in that movie, there is actually a negative commentary on the sort of abuse inflicted on Bourne and a revelation of the devastating consequences it had on his life..."<BR/><BR/>There are several such commentaries in the Halo series, especially at the end of the third game which closes with a nearly five-minute cinematic where the commander of the human forces gives a eulogy for the troops lost in the war and thanks (though doesn't quite forgive) the main alien protagonist.<BR/><BR/>Quote: "In short, there are no redeeming features at all to a game like Halo that comes close to this."<BR/><BR/>In short, individuals who are not willing to expose themselves to the media they are attacking should be certain to at least collect as much data as possible on their foe. Otherwise their assertions ring hollow and their arguments are easily countered.Alec Lanterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17932263748412524884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-64407011664475945302007-10-09T07:39:00.000-07:002007-10-09T07:39:00.000-07:00There is an interesting distinction in how the maj...There is an interesting distinction in how the majority of Christians respond to violence vs. sex or even profanity in the media. For instance, the average Evangelical flips out over music, TV, or movies that contain sexual images or even just innuendo. But many of these same people would have no problem with the latest shoot em' up action flick or video game (and the majority of Christian teens I know love Halo). Janet Jackson's single bare boob caused traditionalists to go ballistic and was a much bigger concern than the desensitization to glorified violence and murder. Of course many pockets of Evangelicalism were and remain the most dedicated supporters of the Iraq War. So it's not just fake violence that we aren't too bothered by.<BR/><BR/>The same happens with profanity. The typical Christian parent would go nuts if they heard their kids listening to music with swear words. Also, I've noticed that when I'm in social settings with other Christians and we are watching a movie, there is an uncomfortable social awkwardness in the room when there's swearing in whatever program is being watched. But there is not the same awkwardness when the latest gore video game or action movie is being played.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that since are inconsistent that we need to lighten up on these other issues (nor am I saying that all or maybe even most are inconsistent like this, but many are). I just find it an interesting contradiction to point out. By the way, I'm part of the problem too. I've watched every episode of "24" and I'm pretty sure somebody dies and/or is murdered in every episode. The shows promotion of torture, aggression, and violence stand in stark contrast to everything I stand for. Yet I still eagerly await the next season and am captivated by each season's plot. <BR/><BR/>The fact that Jack Bauer has killed probably over 100 people just by himself on the show hasn't fazed me much. Certainly not as much as I'm bothered by the occassional profanity on the radio or network TV. Yup, I'm a hypocrite too.Bill Barnwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06519140832310178588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-56262430153023954192007-10-09T07:22:00.000-07:002007-10-09T07:22:00.000-07:00From my simple mind....are we allowing our young p...From my simple mind....are we allowing our young people to be drawn into church by the blood and gore of a video game instead of the blood Jesus suffered on the cross?<BR/><BR/>Think about is, Halo 4 will come out soon, but the blood of Jesus lasts forever.<BR/><BR/>Just my thoughts...Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03045540198591933353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-31690956813819406462007-10-09T03:33:00.000-07:002007-10-09T03:33:00.000-07:00I graduated high school in 2003 and this sort of c...I graduated high school in 2003 and this sort of church phenomena was a contributing factor in my avoidence of youth-groups, church, and Christ, for far too long. <BR/><BR/>I was raised in a luke-warm Christian home-- I remember being read scripture since I can remember the sound of my father's voice, but can count the times the family went to church on both hands.<BR/><BR/>As a teenager I found it increasingly difficult understanding Christianity in a public school where every lesson seemed to rule out the will of God-- when I asked about religion teachers would avoid the subject with an "to each their own" type statement. One can imagine the confusion and doubt. <BR/><BR/>Church youth groups like the ones mentioned in your post confused me even more. <BR/><BR/>Why would I want to come play Halo with the youth group at a church whose God seemed to be everything Halo wasn't? Of course, I played the games (they were cool..) but I was even more turned off from Christ by what I felt was hypocrisy. <BR/><BR/>I understood, and still understand, these kids were having a good time together, and everyone would much rather them be at church than at the mall, but I could not understand how a God that they sing is lifting them higher and filling their souls with song is exalted by playing video games. <BR/><BR/>I had serious questions, serious doubts, and all everyone wanted to do was play video games or ride roller coasters. I loved playing video games, but they didn't bring me closer to any truth, they didn't answer any of the questions that kept me seperate from the church. <BR/><BR/>It felt like the youth leaders were just keeping us occupied as much as possible so we didn't slow down and demand something more. Unfortunately though, things eventually do slow down, and we need real answers and less distractions.CHASEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888511555078732390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-55281096662494951852007-10-08T23:54:00.000-07:002007-10-08T23:54:00.000-07:00Well Said BW3!Perspective is a big factor that has...Well Said BW3!<BR/>Perspective is a big factor that has not been touched upon in this discussion. It is very difficulty for teens to realize there is a world outside of their own (American) culture. Only when 'young people' become exposed firsthand to the realities of how most of the world lives outside of the USA, can there be a chance to genuinely change their personal life systems. Many live in poverty with hungry bellies and the threat of death, slavery to the sex trade, and many other forms of horrific conditions. <BR/>My suggestion is that maybe our youth groups could take a leaf out of Bono's book and begin to promote social justice and other 'hippie' values(as some would call it, I would suggest they are more Christian than hippie), maybe only then will our Youth groups be an agent of change. <BR/>You want a 'radical' youth group? try selling feeding the homeless, saving the environment, clothing the poor, being agents of kindness in society. Sure not many kids will 'think' its cool, but I am sure there are some that think the campaign 'make poverty history' is a waste of time as well. <BR/>Halo3 is a game we will not stop youth groups playing, nor our church boards wasting another meeting deciding if they should let the youth minister 'use it' in youth group. If the church modeled true social justice, true environmental stewardship and true compassion and grace, then dare I say we may find more for our youth group to participate in other than playing games and eating pizza.<BR/>The deeper issue is that we are too scared to be seen as 'radical' or 'left' that we wont get up and change the world we live in and seek to make a difference that matters, instead many choose to take an option that looks good on paper. Finally we blog about our concern over a video game, rather than our concern that people are starving, kids are being abused, and the environment is getting destroyed and grace is a dirty word etc.<BR/>Shame on us.....if you need to use Halo 3 for your youth group, by all means go ahead, but if you want real change in young people...I would suggest we give them something to live for and something to be apart of, something that will change their world and our world forever other than trivial video games.<BR/>Anyway food for thought…..<BR/>Peace my friendsCPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07061614570571933329noreply@blogger.com