tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post6460819352296871097..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Angst and Anger as Evangelical Republicans Worry about an 08 CandidateBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-28790498957520596432007-03-21T04:58:00.000-07:002007-03-21T04:58:00.000-07:00The separation of church and state is not for the ...The separation of church and state is not for the benefit of the state. Greg Boyd doesn't say that you should not participate in politics, he says that you should recognize that the Kingdom is not of this earth. Our, or any, political system is an imperfect way of trying to regulate the human condition in a fallen world. It's not necessarily 'good' or 'bad' - but it is certainly imperfect. To equate any political position, party or candidate with Christianity is to characterize Christianity with the imperfections of that position, party or candidate.<BR/><BR/>Another thing that Greg Boyd points out is that we are not advised by Jesus that we can 'delegate' our responsibility to take care of each other to the government or "charities". We are just supposed to share our stuff with other people. It's supposed to be an act of love, and I also agree that we should not be forced to do so. If the Spirit leads you to not share with lazy, over-fertile, alien hypochondriacs, you should pray to be shown someone more deserving.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12728003865068686913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-29214891759217424322007-03-20T20:06:00.000-07:002007-03-20T20:06:00.000-07:00"The Group" will soon be salivating at the prospec..."The Group" will soon be salivating at the prospect of Fred Thompson running I would think. He has indicated he's mulling it over. I think he will run...he would quickly become the front runner after he announces. Just my 2 cents.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06553549689649625872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-60443137879015578572007-03-20T10:18:00.000-07:002007-03-20T10:18:00.000-07:00Alex I will do that, thanks for the link. What I m...Alex I will do that, thanks for the link. What I meant by that is if in November and you can choose between Hillary and Rudy which way are you going to go? Half a loaf on the right or crumbs on the left? Obviously we're a long way from 11/2008 so who knows who's going to get nominated by both parties between now and then.The Vegas Art Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09800692010017718392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-31739080573196164742007-03-20T10:08:00.000-07:002007-03-20T10:08:00.000-07:00Vegas Art Guy,For why I refuse to vote for a half-...Vegas Art Guy,<BR/><BR/>For why I refuse to vote for a half-loaf, see my post at http://alexlsilva.blogspot.com/2006/11/67-voting-as-message.html<BR/><BR/>Thanks,Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349302232084350190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-61039379035852663602007-03-19T16:54:00.000-07:002007-03-19T16:54:00.000-07:00What really scares them I think is that someone 'l...What really scares them I think is that someone 'like' Guliani could get through the primaries and then put that group in a tight spot. Yes I'd like to see Guliani a bit more to the right, but the GOP really needs some fresh blood and a new look, especially considering the stomping they took in 06 and are likely to take in 08. If we try to find the perfect canidate we'll just frustrate ourselves, and personally the thought of President Hillary Clinton or Barak Obama really scares me. Do we take half a loaf or none?The Vegas Art Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09800692010017718392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-68919503925402463842007-03-19T15:31:00.000-07:002007-03-19T15:31:00.000-07:00'the politics of jesus' is actually by john howard...'the politics of jesus' is actually by john howard yoder, not stanley hauerwas.<BR/><BR/>just a clarification. <BR/><BR/>also, the documentary 'jesus camp' is fascinating viewing for anyone, christian or otherwise, interested in the intersection between evangelicalism and politics in this country.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05379325857021894680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-19147780189532174212007-03-19T13:07:00.000-07:002007-03-19T13:07:00.000-07:00I would take the discussion of Christian involveme...I would take the discussion of Christian involvement in politics as one form of the larger discussion of Christian involvement in secular culture. Traditionally there have been 3-4 approaches to this under the headings: 1) Christ beside and largely separate from culture (the Amish approach); 2) Christ against culture (the counter cultural approach); 3) Christ transforms culture. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me that one can make a case for 2) or 3) rather more easily than you can for 1) on the basis of the Bible. The question then becomes at what level does one engage with society in general. If you are a person who takes an all or nothing approach to social policy or politics, then of course you are going to be far more comfortable with approach 1). If however you believe that at least incrementally positive change can be achieved through the process of debate, dialogue, compromise and conclusion leading to legislation or public policy then you will probably take approach 2) or 3) as a means to the ends. <BR/><BR/>The problem however at this stage of American politics is that it has been hijacked by the rich and powerful, the lobbyists and the major industries they work for, and even to be a candidate for a high office such as President requires either you or someone you depend on to be rich. Far too few people have far too much control of the process of national elections, and the end result is the sort of cynicism we have where barely half the electorate even votes in a normal national election. <BR/><BR/>I have no problems with Christians airing their views in public and in political processes--- this is supposed to be a democracy, and the original idea of separation of church and state was not meant to protect the state from the church, but rather vice versa. <BR/><BR/>In my experience however, much more tends to be accomplished by direct action. For example, all the churches going and helping rebuild the Gulf Coast has been a good thing, all the while waiting for FEMA to get its act together. Of course we could have rebuilt the whole Gulf Coast by taking only one weeks worth of what we are spending in Iraq and reallocating it to something more productive! <BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-61356042318897528602007-03-19T11:03:00.000-07:002007-03-19T11:03:00.000-07:00Right now I'm living in Austria. Austria has a ver...Right now I'm living in Austria. Austria has a very functional and efficient socialist system of health care, unemployment, public trans., etc. The taxes are very high, but no one I know here would say they are being "forced" to help other people. Instead, everyone I know simply shrugs their shoulders and says that's what it takes to help other people on a national scale. The system is set up in such a way that it enables people to work harder and better, and not be hindranced by their lack of car, ability to go to the doctor, money to feed their kids, etc. If you take the position that more extensive health care would be someone "forcing" you to help motivate the poor or sick, why are you not angered that you're also forced to helped someone drive to work (via tax-funded highways and byways)?<BR/><BR/>The gospel does not advocate a notion of "our people" versus "their people." Rather, its interest is in people in general. If I am moved to help an orphaned baby, why am I automatically suspect if I help an orphan from another country? Neither has the United States ever in its history taken an "our people" approach, at least when it comes to immigration. Doesn't the Statue of Liberty read "give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breath free..." Before we adopt an "our people" approach, we should consider taking down that statue.<BR/><BR/>Another helpful book is <I>The Politics of Jesus</I> by Stanley Hauerwas.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16236694490047619649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-49826272728135522152007-03-19T10:16:00.000-07:002007-03-19T10:16:00.000-07:00Okiepug, your comment frustrates me, but in the sp...Okiepug, your comment frustrates me, but in the spirit of iron sharpening iron, I strongly recommend you read two books in order to be fair and balanced with your strong opinions. The first is "Amazing Grace" by Jonathan Kozol. The second is "The End of Poverty' by Jeffrey Sachs. Fantastic books, and I'd love to hear your recommendations from the other side. Thanks!Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349302232084350190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-47576755515179963572007-03-19T10:09:00.000-07:002007-03-19T10:09:00.000-07:00For those interested, check out Jim Wallis' blog w...For those interested, check out Jim Wallis' blog which specifically speaks to your comment, Paul. He has already debated Ralph Reed on what the great moral issues of our time should be, and now he has challenged James Dobson.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349302232084350190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-46944521413653768142007-03-19T07:28:00.000-07:002007-03-19T07:28:00.000-07:00This whole collection of "hot button issues" has a...This whole collection of "hot button issues" has always mystified me. There's a preoccupation with stuff involving sex and reproduction and a love of firearms.<BR/><BR/>The world faces so many problems. Plenty of them could be correlated with lines of scripture. I've never really understood why "conservatives" focus on their partcular set of issues. Why not be concerned about conserving the environment, conserving people's good health, conserving some modest relative degree of prosperity for the poor as the gulf separating rich and poor gets wider and wider around the world?<BR/><BR/>I don't get it.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14770384445526387065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-42024468309309163862007-03-19T07:05:00.000-07:002007-03-19T07:05:00.000-07:00Hi Ben,I am saddened that too often this group of ...Hi Ben,<BR/><BR/>I am saddened that too often this group of evangelicals gets the most public face time. I am regularly associated with them and their political beliefs when talking with those outside the church, and I find myself having to clarify that not all christians think the way they do. I think their frustration with the candidate choices for '08 signifies, as you said, their increasing marginalization--they just don't carry as much political clout anymore. Fresh winds of political change are brewing in the evangelical camp!<BR/><BR/>At some point I would like to hear your opinion on how a Christian should interface with politics. Just generally speaking how involved should a Christian be in the political process beyond just voting. I found some of Greg Boyd's reasoning about this compelling (see <A HREF="http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_721.htm" REL="nofollow">Woodland Hills page</A>). He basically argues about the inherent ambiguity of political issues and therefore the danger in labelling one political position as the 'one' christian position. Some have labeled his position a revisiting of pietistic withdrawal--and it might seem that way in contrast to the aforementioned groups political engagement. But I wonder if there isn't some middle ground between simply withdrawing from the process or choosing to focus all your efforts toward political change.<BR/> <BR/>How much should we look to and lobby for the governement to change the world (and bring the kingdom) by helping the poor, bringing peace, etc., and how much should we seek to do that on local grass-roots levels from within the church?<BR/><BR/>Any thoughts?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08001453772284282709noreply@blogger.com