tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post63634076792498560..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: THE SAD STATE OF CHRISTIAN WORSHIP--Spirit-Filled SingingBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-51909625840160853292009-04-09T10:09:00.000-07:002009-04-09T10:09:00.000-07:00It's been a while since I've visited your Blog, Dr...It's been a while since I've visited your Blog, Dr. Witherington.<BR/><BR/>I like this post. Music has been a very important part of my life, and actually is the instrument God used to really spark seriousness in me about my faith. Plus, there's an appeal to the psych. major in me right there at the end. ^_^<BR/><BR/>I was wondering, how much does the Work that this is taken from discuss worship that isn't musical or performance-like? One example of such a worship experience that I've come to recognize is study. My mentor always told us that, if God has called us to a school or seminary to learn from it and study the material, then we should do that with all our heart and mind the same way we're supposed to sing with all our heart and mind at a worship service.<BR/><BR/>I actually visited one of his classes where he teaches now, and he announced a quiz by saying "We'll be having a worship experience next week."Rob Pennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08445810017756628834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-5702455931453518422009-03-31T15:31:00.000-07:002009-03-31T15:31:00.000-07:00Many of the criticisms that I hear for worship in ...Many of the criticisms that I hear for worship in Western churches today is broad and somewhat vague. I'm not a musician or a poet, but I love music and I appreciate greatly a lot of music that is being used in churches today. But perhaps it is not so much the style of music or the types of instruments being used that is being criticized; rather, it is the spirit in which it is done. I would suggest that no solution/change that stops short of actual personal, spiritual renewal in the worshipers themselves will change -genuinely- the quality of the worship that is being offered. Certainly, worship is not a moment at all; it is lives. One contemporary artist calls it a "lifesong." It is interesting to hear terms like "worship center," "worship band" or even "worship music" -as its own genre (?) being used so popularly now. <BR/><BR/>-MichaelUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17599936888860360339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-29976659640013709382009-03-31T11:24:00.000-07:002009-03-31T11:24:00.000-07:00No matter how well each of you write your opinions...No matter how well each of you write your opinions and thoughts...and they are well said and thought out...the church remains caught in the web of being relevant but not revolutionary or what Eugene Peterson calls, subversive. <BR/>We all know something is off...we all feel disconnected and disspointed..yet, every Sunday/Saturday..or whatever new time we think will meet the masses..we listen to one man, sing too many songs to long and too loud... leave feeling we should have stayed home. <BR/>We so want to matter and meet to and with the ALmighty, with the ones He calls his Bride. I should speak for myself rather then include everyone but I know when I leave church I feel empty and full of longing.about the long and winding road...https://www.blogger.com/profile/15988299304399949451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-31180130982946694822009-03-28T10:18:00.000-07:002009-03-28T10:18:00.000-07:00I think it is likely psalmos implies the use of in...I think it is likely psalmos implies the use of instruments in early Jewish Christian music.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-70970225473654769472009-03-27T14:46:00.000-07:002009-03-27T14:46:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington,Given the word that Paul uses "ps...Dr. Witherington,<BR/><BR/>Given the word that Paul uses "psalmos" which you said literally means to "pluck a string;" would you then say we could conclude that instrumental worship was happening in the first century homes as they gathered?philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04746013979657702623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-74506925252518355082009-03-27T13:56:00.000-07:002009-03-27T13:56:00.000-07:00Hi Me the B:I am afraid that there is plenty of fa...Hi Me the B:<BR/><BR/>I am afraid that there is plenty of fault to go around, and chiefly what has to be deprogrammed is the consumer mentality approach to worship, not to mention the attempt to treat it as a form of entertainment for the silent masses staring in rapt attention. Pastors and teachers need to educate there people in how to worship, and they share a good deal of blame in disabling worship. <BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-79075054315629110722009-03-26T17:49:00.000-07:002009-03-26T17:49:00.000-07:00Thanks for another thought provoking post Ben, my ...Thanks for another thought provoking post Ben, my comment is not so much directed at your post exclusively but rather at the struggle I have been experiencing for some time and my hope is that your and your readers may have some helpful insights ...<BR/><BR/>As I read about Christian gatherings in the NT it seems that those gatherings are inclusive and active - with those attending participating in what is happening.<BR/><BR/>And yet the typical evangelical Christian gatherings we have today are mostly exclusive, passive and the only participation is to join in singing with the band who sings what they want when they want [A gross exaggeration of the song selection process and yet a fair summary I feel] which seems to be at odds with the NT example of people bringing what God gives them and actively participating and even, in an orderly way, setting the direction of what happens when in a meeting, as each person takes their turn.<BR/><BR/>Yet when people with more knowledge and wisdom than me address those passages they point out what the passage says - inclusive, active, participation in worship - but then add a modifying statement to support the practice of today.<BR/><BR/>as you did ...<BR/><BR/>"Notice too that here, as in 1 Cor. 14 nothing suggests a clergy dominated worship service. Everyone is allowed to join in and participate as the Spirit leads them. However ..."<BR/><BR/>Whilst I concede that Paul has indeed been speaking about Leadership and orderly worship is something that Paul upholds - inclusive, active, participation in worship does not mean that leadership is not existent nor that worship has to be disorderly, in fact 1 Cor 14 finishes with a powerful and even beautiful explanation of a Spirit driven gathering where "each one ... one by one ... not of disorder but of peace" has their part to play and plays it.<BR/><BR/>I am struggling with why our gatherings remain essentially exclusive, passive, observation [consuming??] of a select few exercising the gifts God gave them [even if they are not CLERGY in name they are clergy in sense] rather than the inclusive, active, participation of the NT.<BR/><BR/>I am honestly feeling as if I have missed something as time and again I read the NT description of gathered worship and look at the gathered worship of today and see such a huge divide.<BR/><BR/>Thoughts?Me The Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04987326875761198862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-25761798014917803482009-03-26T17:12:00.000-07:002009-03-26T17:12:00.000-07:00A couple thoughts: First, your statement that wor...A couple thoughts: First, your statement that worship is the most important act that we can perform is profound. Nothing is more important for us to grow into the Spirit-formed image bearers we were created to be than worship.<BR/><BR/>Second, one cannot approach the subject of worship, especially the subject of music in worship, with modern/post-modern nominalist presuppositions. By this I mean that all of reality is expressed and contained in symbols. Just as words contain the reality they represent, so music is a form that communicates and contains truth in its content. It is impossible to worship the triune God in Spirit and Truth while angrily screaming the name of Jesus to a discordant noise blasting from speakers the decibel level of which will not only cause one to be deaf, but most likely cause one to become sterile.<BR/><BR/>Third, worship has a grammar. That grammar is most perfectly manifest in the liturgy of the eucharist as the Church has always and everywhere celebrated that holy meal.<BR/><BR/>Peace.James W Lunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05430399694778355590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-16201427002947800132009-03-26T10:06:00.000-07:002009-03-26T10:06:00.000-07:00The quote from Gordon Fee is from God's Empowering...The quote from Gordon Fee is from God's Empowering Presence, a real classic that deals with every Holy Spirit reference in the NT. <BR/><BR/>I have often said that worship is the most important act on earth, as it produces the opposite of what evil intends--- idolatry. <BR/><BR/>BW3Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-58477158540224537872009-03-26T09:18:00.000-07:002009-03-26T09:18:00.000-07:00I'm currently doing a sermon series on Worship and...I'm currently doing a sermon series on Worship and specifically looking into the Holy Spirit's role in worship so this post was especially helpful. Thank you. You cite Gordon Fee in your post. Could you give me the specific source that citation is from?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723214296489860988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-80777434232902307032009-03-26T08:51:00.000-07:002009-03-26T08:51:00.000-07:00I have a former professor who thinks that worship ...I have a former professor who thinks that worship is an act of warfare in the book of Revelation. The evil powers fall when God's greatness is declared. I think he's on to something. I'm looking forward to your book.Darryl Schaferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11546651861977543817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-48878739540697919322009-03-26T05:19:00.000-07:002009-03-26T05:19:00.000-07:00HI Chuck: Worship is not fellowship, but it does ...HI Chuck: <BR/><BR/>Worship is not fellowship, but it does involve the edification of our fellow believers as well as the glorification of God. The focus of worship must however be theocentric, not anthropocentric as it has so often become. Worship is not about giving people what they want and crave, its about giving God what he desires and requires. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Ben W.Ben Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-39383341387405726852009-03-26T03:52:00.000-07:002009-03-26T03:52:00.000-07:00"Speak to one another" --- One wonders what prompt..."Speak to one another" --- One wonders what prompted Paul to include the kenosis hymn in his letter to Philippi. Did he think *first* of Euodia and Synteche and then later of Christ and the implications of the incarnation? Or to put it another way, if these two women had not squabbled would we even have this great spiritual song of Christology?<BR/><BR/>Here congregational life, theology and worship all come together in a single sitting. I know that good worship involves our eye angled toward God. But does it not also involve an eye cognizant of the presence of brethren nearest us?Chuck Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00641285170684991802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-37554823402551474592009-03-25T12:17:00.000-07:002009-03-25T12:17:00.000-07:00Very good discussion on Christian worship. You hav...Very good discussion on Christian worship. You have shown clearly that worship should be both Spirit-empowered and scripture-drenched. <BR/><BR/>When Paul says "speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" in Eph 5:19, I'm trying to picture in my mind what that would have looked like. It seems like we know the Bible so little that it is hard for most Christians to carry out this command. <BR/><BR/>I was also thinking that it certainly seems to fit the emphasis on truthful speech in this epistle.Marc Axelrodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04364703655694001236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-46038584331861977802009-03-25T12:09:00.000-07:002009-03-25T12:09:00.000-07:00I'm impressed that when God appeared to men in the...I'm impressed that when God appeared to men in the Bible they responded in fear, ofen falling to the ground. Men would become friends with God, but the journey began with a healthy does of fear at the awesome nature of God. I want to be God's friend, and God be mine, but must humbly remember the Creator-created nature of our relationship! This thought helps me in worship, too. Thanks for the interesting post.<BR/>WarrenWarren Baldwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17956713921509659993noreply@blogger.com