tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post115875310461429826..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Pope's Protest Against Islamic Violence produces ViolenceBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158964050629490532006-09-22T15:27:00.000-07:002006-09-22T15:27:00.000-07:00i was amazed at how sorry i felt for that italian ...i was amazed at how sorry i felt for that italian nun in somolia...how senseless.<BR/><BR/>--RC of strangeculture.blogspot.comRChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11340006144797496514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158947133301354932006-09-22T10:45:00.000-07:002006-09-22T10:45:00.000-07:00You're very sarcastic. Please forgive me if any o...You're very sarcastic. Please forgive me if any of my earlier comments seemed that way; it was not intended.<BR/><BR/>My point is that Ratzinger is a man; no more, no less. No matter how many people put themselves under the guidance of the Roman church, he remains human--I hold him to be fallible whether he's speaking extemporaneously or ex cathedra. I did say that he's important on the world stage, but having power doesn't make someone special. His position does mean that his comments will affect the way Islamists treat Christians, though.David Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04836607971197780075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158884909392943542006-09-21T17:28:00.000-07:002006-09-21T17:28:00.000-07:00The article is interesting, but skips over some im...The article is interesting, but skips over some important context.<BR/><BR/>First, the Friedman expends much energy on the question of whether Benedict has "backed Bush" here or not. This is obviously an important issue to him. But the important context here would be the earlier "secret" agreement that John Paul the 2nd had with Ronald Reagan (formed June 7, 1982) in order to jointly attack communism from different angles. The two always remained distinct, but had agreed that Soviet communism was a dangerous ideology that needed to be undermined in whatever way it could within their respective spheres. I don't know if Benedict and Bush have made a similar pact, but the pope is surely capable of acting in concert with aa U.S. president in order to work against an ideology, without it leading to any kind of political "backing."<BR/><BR/>Second, it is surely true that many in Britain (including the outspoken John Rhys Davies from the Indiana Jones and Lord of the Rings movies) and Europe have worried about the prospect of a (re-)productive Muslim population taking over a Western culture in which the dominant ethnicities choose to have only 1.5 kids or less.<BR/><BR/>But the more immediate context for the pope's words about Islam and violence would be the forced conversions of the two Fox News employees. As Friedman's article notes, the pope's controversial lecture specifically mentioned Mohammed's "command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." Indeed, eveything he said about Islam turned on this issue. But the mainstream media (except for a few conservative blogs) mostly ignored the issue of Centanni and Wiig's conversion. As mostly secular people, they probably figured that going along with the forced conversions were an entirely practicle way of getting out alive, and therefore not much worthy of comment.<BR/><BR/>Benedict, however, as well as Christians all over the world, would see forced conversions as a significant issue. (And it was not widely reported that if Centanni or Wiig ever renounce their conversions, they will be targeted for death as "apostates.") While I agree with Friedman that Benedict's remarks were targeted at inspiring the moderate wing of Islam to move their more radical brethren from violence to reason, it would seem that Benedict was thinking more about forced convresions rather than other geo-political issues.yuckabuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05286909279733012915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158884722376744742006-09-21T17:25:00.000-07:002006-09-21T17:25:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.yuckabuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05286909279733012915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158866916228090742006-09-21T12:28:00.000-07:002006-09-21T12:28:00.000-07:00Then perhaps your use of the word "cynical" was no...Then perhaps your use of the word "cynical" was not for the best. The word implies a lack of faith in human nature. Therefore, when you use it to describe Friedman's reading of Benedict's comments, you imply that this particular reading says nothing good about the Pope's character. I don't see a problem with the Pope saying things with multiple possibilities in mind. But then again, I don't think of the Pope as anyone particularly special--important on the world stage, maybe, but not special.David Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04836607971197780075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158808480920427292006-09-20T20:14:00.000-07:002006-09-20T20:14:00.000-07:00After a young friend of mine called from South Car...After a young friend of mine called from South Carolina to tell me he was really impressed by the Pope's speech, I went to the trouble of tracking town the official text (english version) and read the whole thing. I agree that this speech was a very well engineered provocation and that the Vatican wasn't taken by surprise when things got nasty. I don't think this is being cynical. <BR/><BR/>"Pope Benedict is an intelligent man." Yes and he is not afraid of controversy.C. Stirling Bartholomewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03571440237755902925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158783542521071592006-09-20T13:19:00.000-07:002006-09-20T13:19:00.000-07:00Completely agree with this article. I think I wou...Completely agree with this article. I think I would have written something like it if I hadn't seen it here. I liken our relationship to Islam to my marriage. How can I resolve any problems with my wife if I either (a) refuse to talk with her about them (e.g. Bush's approach with Iran) or (b) skirt the real tough issues that I'm afraid to talk about (e.g. the liberal response to Islamic violence). <BR/><BR/>To truly heal a relationship, the only hope you have is to talk and when you talk, throw the "hand grenade" of truth into what might be a powder keg of a conversation. This is what we know we need to do constantly in our marriages and this is what the Pope did in his speech. It's "Bold Love" to quote from the Dan Allender book of the same name.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03349302232084350190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158783417267117332006-09-20T13:16:00.000-07:002006-09-20T13:16:00.000-07:00I disagree with the comment that the article is "w...I disagree with the comment that the article is "way too cynical." The comment assumes that having a political motivation for saying something means that either a) the motivations are bad or b) the author of the statement is a "petty politician" (or something along those lines). I think we too easily dismiss, with regard to ecclesiastical matters, the necessity of anticipating political consequences or the possible good uses of saying true things with political intentions. Think about Luke 16:1-9--Jesus seems to acknowledge the need for such clevernesses and the possible goodness of them.<BR/><BR/>That said, this analysis of Benedict's words is certainly interesting, although I don't know if I agree. It certainly is a challenging read of the situation.David Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04836607971197780075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158770853007115012006-09-20T09:47:00.000-07:002006-09-20T09:47:00.000-07:00Obviously you missed the thrust of the lecture tha...Obviously you missed the thrust of the lecture that addressed "the West":<BR/><BR/>"The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application. While we rejoice in the new possibilities open to humanity, we also see the dangers arising from these possibilities and we must ask ourselves how we can overcome them.<BR/><BR/>We will succeed in doing so only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons. In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith.<BR/><BR/>Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today. In the Western world it is widely held that only positivistic reason and the forms of philosophy based on it are universally valid. Yet the world's profoundly religious cultures ..." [which by the way includes Catholicism] "...see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions."code monkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15415655769974691925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158761687587028382006-09-20T07:14:00.000-07:002006-09-20T07:14:00.000-07:00Interesting article, although I seem to interpret ...Interesting article, although I seem to interpret the Pope's comments differently. Friedman seems to be reading a whole lot into things with this academic lecture. I find it hard to believe that the Benedict would have used the setting he was in to cause the political effects that Friedman suggests could have been on the Pope's mind. I wonder if anyone is familiar with Friedman's background.<BR/><BR/>I am working on an article for my own blog that attempts to expound the Pope's lecture. I will take Friedman's comments into consideration as I finish it. Thanks for posting this.Matt Cleaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702675117384036467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1158754121270594722006-09-20T05:08:00.000-07:002006-09-20T05:08:00.000-07:00Ben:This is an excellent article! I have been baff...Ben:<BR/><BR/>This is an excellent article! I have been baffled as to how the pope could not have known the fallout from his words. This explain much.Allan R. Beverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07903011101108437513noreply@blogger.com