tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post115478851166702798..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Supercessionism, Dispensationalism, and the Present Middle East Crisis-- A Christian StandBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-67806642121424247962009-04-30T13:26:00.000-07:002009-04-30T13:26:00.000-07:00There is as middle route, and indeed one can also ...There is as middle route, and indeed one can also reject supercessionism without embracing Christian Zionism (as R. Kendall Soulen's excellent "The God of Israel and Christian Theology" demonstrates). My new book also challenges the extremes of supercessionism and Christian Zionism. It is called "The Jews, Modern Israel and the New Supercessionism: Resources for Christians". Full details, contents, endorsements and contributors can be found at http://www.thechurchandisrael.com. <br />Ben, ironically we first met in Jerusalem sever4al years ago and as a result you kindly did a great interview for us (with Andy Cheung) for our website at King's Evangelical Divinity School, United Kingdom. Many thanks for that.<br /><br />Calvin L. SmithCalvin L. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06688347236557235062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-64232973472472874792009-04-13T04:18:00.000-07:002009-04-13T04:18:00.000-07:00Old blog, but I hope that I can present a balanced...Old blog, but I hope that I can present a balanced critique. Dispensationalism has more evidence in it's favor than you might think. Calling it Darbyism is like calling the Gospel "Paulism". As a non-halachic Jew who accepted Christ in the past year, Dispensationalism makes more sense to me than Calvinism or supercessionism. <BR/><BR/>Sadly, Ben Witherington seems to fall into the trap of equating Zionism with the terrorism of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. Precisely because terrorists hide among civilians and use civilians as shields (while also indoctrinating civilians), Israel's in a no win situation that only God can deliver her from. Israel's fair weather friends, who only seem to like Jews as victims, and the international community cowering in fear before radical Islam certainly are a hollow reed for Israel to rely upon.<BR/><BR/>Someday, God will redeem Israel and Palestinian Arabs will live in peace as a clan within Israel, but radical Islam has no future. Until that time, it's the fault of the Arabs that there is no peace in the Middle East. Every civilian death on both sides will be counted against the terrorists, not the Zionist Jews that the world so loves to hate.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09450413169394792228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-88479087272658597222008-09-20T16:17:00.000-07:002008-09-20T16:17:00.000-07:00Despite quite a few comments already in, I have o...Despite quite a few comments already in, I have one to make about the quoted passage which reads: <BR/><BR/>'...and indeed the covenant with Moses can be described as obsolete ... It is in this sense that Hebrews can be appropriately called a <B>‘supercessionist’</B> document.”(Hebrews. A Guide, p. 114).<BR/><BR/>It may be rightly described as <B>supercessioNISTIC</B>, but should not be called <B>supercessioNIST</B> document; the former is telling about some picture of it, but the latter is a plain 'labeling'. A world difference, especially when quoted out of the text. Whether Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant supercessionists take it as 'supercessionist' document, is another matter.<BR/><BR/>One more thing: a comment by Kenneth that the new covenant <B>necessarily replaces</B> the old one is plainly false. In view of the total picture of Genesis to Eschatology of the entire Bible message, the new covenant is what necessarily <I><B>renews</B></I> the old one. <BR/><BR/>If a covenant in the Bible is understood as a unilateral contract from God with people, as with the one through Adam, Abraham, Moses, and down the final one through Yeshua, by its nature, it has to be of renewal process, rather than of replacement process as in human political ones in the history, despite some of details may become inapplicable and replaced with better one.ounbblhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06185384036982867509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-9184030806072998502007-07-02T07:09:00.000-07:002007-07-02T07:09:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington provides a helpful, balanced anal...Dr. Witherington provides a helpful, balanced analysis of the biblically-based theology of supercessionism. Supercessionism simply states that the new covenant is the fruit of the old covenant. And that the new covenant necessarily replaces the old covenant. It is is no way anti-Semitic, despite the response of dispensationalists, liberal "Christians," and politically-correct pluralism.Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06568518128099679304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1155048247580144082006-08-08T07:44:00.000-07:002006-08-08T07:44:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington,Thanks for the post. Could you or...Dr. Witherington,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the post. Could you or anyone here post where I could find a schematical view of the different eschatalogical positions there are?<BR/><BR/>ThanksDavid Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691142061159646864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1155016354726946622006-08-07T22:52:00.000-07:002006-08-07T22:52:00.000-07:00Very interesting post. However, I have to disagre...Very interesting post. However, I have to disagree with your description of dispensationalism as having "two covenants in operation at once—- one for Jews and one for Gentiles, or one for Jews and one for Christians."<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure where you've gotten this information but it more likely came from someone attempting to refute Disp. instead of from a Dispensationalist.<BR/><BR/>I agree that the natural progression would have been from Judaism to Christianity. But, since that has not necessarily followed for each individual Jew, they are still practicing Judaism - meaning that it IS a separate religion. It's great news for all Israel that one day they will be saved. But, what about the individual who never accepted Christ's sacrifice as the fulfillment of God's requirement? Is it not true that this person has practiced a failed religion?<BR/><BR/>Concerning the security of a believer: "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life" and John said, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."<BR/><BR/>Comfort each other with these words.Link McGinnishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14017780928019089153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154965421290880902006-08-07T08:43:00.000-07:002006-08-07T08:43:00.000-07:00Well Chris, you are welcome to disagree, but the N...Well Chris, you are welcome to disagree, but the NT is perfectly clear that conversion is only the beginning of salvation. You still have to work our your salvation with fear and trembling thereafter. And I would suggest you read through Heb. 6 carefully on the apostasy issue. As Paul says, there are those who have made shipwreck of their faith. You can't make shipwreck of something you don't have.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154919195075265082006-08-06T19:53:00.000-07:002006-08-06T19:53:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington,In your post, you quote Lincoln a...Dr. Witherington,<BR/><BR/>In your post, you quote Lincoln as saying, "Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice does away with the need for the sacrificial system (cf. 10.4-18) and indeed the covenant with Moses can be described as obsolete (8.13)."<BR/><BR/>While I do not intend to disagree with this statement at all, I am curious if you can shed some light on the practices of Paul (specifically), and the early Chuch (generally) in light of this statement?<BR/><BR/>What I am specifically curious about is our accounting of Paul's last actions before his final incarceration in the book of Acts. It is puzzling to me that he still felt the need to make sacrifice at the temple, and that he wanted to do so in the presence of witnesses.<BR/><BR/>In addition to this, our historical evidence suggests that the early Church still largely practiced Christianity within the Synagogue community until nearly 200 ce. This included observance of the feasts, worship, Sabbath keeping, and dietary laws. In fact, letters from some of our Early Church Fathers as late as ce 300 express contempt for those congregations still doing so. In particular, I remember reading a letter by John Chrysostom in which he calls these people Judaisers and refers specifically to their keeping of the Sabbath and Feasts.<BR/><BR/>My question then, is how do we reconcile some of these historical findings, and the witness of Scripture to Paul's actions, with the statements that you quoted from Lincoln? Did the early believers hold onto something that they shouldn't have? What would Paul's motivation have been for making sacrifice?<BR/><BR/>As always, I enjoy your posts, and am anxious to hear your thoughts on these matters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154911915706322672006-08-06T17:51:00.000-07:002006-08-06T17:51:00.000-07:00On the covenant, professor, I think you are on tra...On the covenant, professor, I think you are on track. Separate covenants is an untenable position. That doesn't mean that Christians don't feel a certain affinity and hope for those who were the original recipients of God's grace. They are in principle our brothers and sisters. Christ died that we all might be together in one household of faith. <BR/><BR/>Blind support of any political body by Christians is unwarranted. That includes Israel. That includes Hezbollah. And unfortunately, that sometimes includes our fellow Christians in Israel, Gaza, the West Bank or Lebanon. <BR/><BR/>Without arguing for any particular position, it is possible to support Israel for reasons other than Dispensationalism. <BR/><BR/>In this world, we usually do have to decide which side we're on. Neutrality is an illusion. And sometimes, the use of ugly, sickening military force is the only means available to achieve a measure of peace and justice. <BR/><BR/>United Methodist <A HREF="http://www.donaldsensing.com/" REL="nofollow">Donald Sensing</A> has a large number of excellent posts on the Israel-Hezbollah war, with militarily reasonable criticisms of Israel. <BR/><BR/>I have a simple prayer for the land in which Jesus walked <A HREF="http://mitchelllewis.blogspot.com/2006/07/jesus-in-land-of-tyre.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.The Ole '55https://www.blogger.com/profile/03348690767240574333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154836087272416772006-08-05T20:48:00.000-07:002006-08-05T20:48:00.000-07:00I am grateful for a scholarly treatment of this se...I am grateful for a scholarly treatment of this sensitive issue. I also have deep concerns with the recent flare up of hostilities. I tried to broach it with sensitivity in my own blog but I always feel like I am walking on egg shells since some folks would view critiques of the Israeli military to be tantamount to anti-semitism. It seems to me that Jesus called us to love all folks, regardless of ethnicity. <BR/><BR/>I have a very dear friend who has family in Lebanon. They love the Lord. Their lives are in peril as a result of the hostilities. This same friend has her PhD in Counseling Psychology with an expertise in assisting victims of war, something she now practices as her occupation. And now once again her own family is at risk. You might imagine what she must be going through right now.<BR/><BR/>Despite what some folks think, there are many in Lebanon and in the broader region who do not condone or support terrorist activity. Yet they become viewed as the enemy because they live in the wrong country. <BR/><BR/>While I believe Israel has a right to defend its sovereign territory, I also maintain that innocents, whether Israeli or Lebanese, should not be destroyed under the auspices of rooting out terrorists. <BR/><BR/>Blesssings,<BR/><BR/>Glen WoodsGlen Alan Woodshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00324285677649912670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154832196314373172006-08-05T19:43:00.000-07:002006-08-05T19:43:00.000-07:00Dr. Witherington,I am a regular reader of your blo...Dr. Witherington,<BR/><BR/>I am a regular reader of your blog. I grew up in a Plymouth Brethren context, but during my undergraduate days began to seriously question much of theology (especially eschatology) I was taught in my formative years. My time at Acadia Div. College (MDiv, MA) under the teaching of Craig Evans, Glenn Wooden, and other great professors was eye-opening and liberating, to put it mildly. As my friend Danny Zacharias (over at deinde.org) and I often say, we have left behind the "left behind" theology. Thank you for your posts, especially the ones which address the troubling pastoral/ethical concerns inherent in pre-millenial dispensationalism. <BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/><BR/>M.L. WalshMatt, Christine, Elijah, Joseph, Sarah, & Oliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446842075658027366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154824346376254332006-08-05T17:32:00.000-07:002006-08-05T17:32:00.000-07:00Actually, we are on a side of this conflict like i...Actually, we are on a side of this conflict like it or not. We are the chief ally of Israel, which means we may not much identify with what our government is doing, but it is in the end our government, which is supposed to be operating "with the consent of the governed". And since we are a global community, I also don't think we can say that this does not effect us either. At the very least it is making it difficult for us to be one with the parts of the body of Christ in the countries involved-- for instance with Marionite Christians in Lebanon or Palestinian ones in Israel. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154810735148998802006-08-05T13:45:00.000-07:002006-08-05T13:45:00.000-07:00I am thankful for your reference to Matt 5-7 and t...I am thankful for your reference to Matt 5-7 and this conflict. This is tragically disregarded in many of our conversations on the issue.<BR/><BR/>However, I am curious what the scriptural prescription is for us who aren't on one side or the other of this (or any other) conflict. We have no one to personally forgive, no enemies to love. If war breaks out on the other side of the world, how much of our energies ought to be spent in bringing peace there, especially as such energies are taken from other tasks more close to home?<BR/><BR/>May all good things be yours,<BR/>Jeff<BR/><BR/>healingmalchus.blogspot.comJeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05101429976374979558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154809739553873282006-08-05T13:28:00.000-07:002006-08-05T13:28:00.000-07:00For a detailed discussion see my Romans commentary...For a detailed discussion see my Romans commentary. In brief, it refers to what happens when Christ returns, by which I mean at his one and only return at the parousia. Paul envisions that the "redeemer will come forth from Zion and turn away the impiety of Jacob". In other words, he expects a large number of Jews to be converted to Christ when he returns to earth to establish his kingdom on earth. Israel does indeed mean in this verse non-Christian Jews, those who are not currently in Christ. Paul is explaining that they will be saved on the same basis, or 'in like manner' to the way the full number of the Gentiles have been saved, namely by grace through faith in Jesus. <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154806499982441422006-08-05T12:34:00.000-07:002006-08-05T12:34:00.000-07:00Darbyism is very well entrenched in evangelical Ch...Darbyism is very well entrenched in evangelical Christianity where the Schofield Bible was an essential prop for the generation that came before me. <BR/><BR/>Can you explain what is meant by "all Israel will be saved" in Romans 11:26" which is often quoted as a proof text by those who believe this doctrine.Terry Hamblinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06346629921055055879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1154791007130845092006-08-05T08:16:00.000-07:002006-08-05T08:16:00.000-07:00Amen!Amen!Todd Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11401060599125766600noreply@blogger.com