tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post115139341186989620..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Pray for the Peace of JerusalemBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152495295466665132006-07-09T18:34:00.000-07:002006-07-09T18:34:00.000-07:00Michael, my problem with this is that your mindset...Michael, my problem with this is that your mindset APPEARS to suggest, "Well, I see what Christ is saying about nonviolence, nonretaliation, not responding to evil with evil, etc, but sorry Jesus, you just aren't living in the real world" or we just limit all this to something that is simply other-worldly and not for us today. If that's the case, no wonder we've made so little progress in so many areas.Bill Barnwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06519140832310178588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152479316914978562006-07-09T14:08:00.000-07:002006-07-09T14:08:00.000-07:00Bill,I don't believe that I have ever used Christ'...Bill,<BR/><BR/>I don't believe that I have ever used Christ's name as a justification for Israel defending herself. And yes, I am a realist. If Israel simply stands down and does not fight back, the terrorists will not go away. And incidentally, a recent poll suggests that 67% of Palestinians support Hamas' tactics of kidnapping Israelies as a means of waging their war. <BR/><BR/>And international law is useless if only one "side" adheres to its standards and principles. Terror does not recognize international standards by any means.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06046469207005773680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152420154507124072006-07-08T21:42:00.000-07:002006-07-08T21:42:00.000-07:00Michael, if war is at least influenced by some mod...Michael, if war is at least influenced by some modern internationally agreed standards, then yes, Israel has used excessive force on occassion. I suppose they could just wipe out every Palestinian and guarantee no future terrorist attack but I'm sure you would not support such a thing. You disregard their being "rules" of war, but internationally, even war has some standards, and you don't have to be some hippy one-worlder UN type to see that, just study international law. You consider yourself a realist because you are just seeing things for what they are, but that's the problem. I find it interesting so many Christians put the ethics of Christ behind the warmongering ethics of this world and their favorite political ideology. No wonder there is no forseeable progress in this realm and so many others.Bill Barnwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06519140832310178588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152414803389906572006-07-08T20:13:00.000-07:002006-07-08T20:13:00.000-07:00Bill,Define "proportional". This is not a contest...Bill,<BR/><BR/>Define "proportional". This is not a contest by which the participants must adhere to a set of rules. Israel does not intend to get hit again, so their response is intended to intimidate and to destroy the source of the attacks. Hate it or love, right or wrong, brother, but that's war.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06046469207005773680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152217567727595122006-07-06T13:26:00.000-07:002006-07-06T13:26:00.000-07:00Michael, is every Palestinian a "terrorist"? I don...Michael, is every Palestinian a "terrorist"? I don't think anyone here is defending terrorism, but the problem with most conservative Christians today is that they seem to think that the every day Palestinian has no legitimate right to live in the land and that they are always in the wrong when it comes to their dispute with Israel. And as has been mentioned before, of course, Israel can and should defend itself against atrocities, but that doesn't mean they should launch their own atrocities, and they should also be proportional in their response, which is something that they don't exactly have a sterling record on.Bill Barnwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06519140832310178588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152151762612613212006-07-05T19:09:00.000-07:002006-07-05T19:09:00.000-07:00Omar,So you would simply have Israel disarm? Do y...Omar,<BR/><BR/>So you would simply have Israel disarm? Do you really believe it to be that simple?<BR/><BR/>As for Israelis reading Torah, there are many recorded instances when ancient Israel was allowed to defend itself.<BR/><BR/>I think we've reached a point where we must agree to disagree. I'm afraid you cannot convince me that terrorists have a legitimate beef when they use their bloody and cowardly tactics against innocent civilians.<BR/><BR/>I wish you peace. And by the way, you are not the only one with friends and loved ones in a war zone.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06046469207005773680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152068556318520472006-07-04T20:02:00.000-07:002006-07-04T20:02:00.000-07:00And with regards to your other question, "what wou...And with regards to your other question, "what would I have Israel do?" I would have them read their Bible (what we call the Old Testament... not to criticize your intelligence, but for the sake of others reading this and have them look at what the Scriptures say regarding treating the "alien" in their land and God's intention of them being the light of God to the Gentiles, which for you and me means Christ. In other words, I would say to Israel that if you want to cliam Biblical rights to the land, then you must be ready to do as God has comanded and love and serve the Palestinian, regardless of if they are right or not. <BR/><BR/>And if you think this goes against the OT teaching, well then remember that you claim to be part of the New Testament, which holds you to a higher standard than what I just said... In other words, you are callled to forgive and love REGARDLESS of who it is.. and that inclued Palestinian Mulsim Arabs.Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664056566879773286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152068000448750662006-07-04T19:53:00.000-07:002006-07-04T19:53:00.000-07:00"Remember, Omar, that Israel didn't just wake up o..."Remember, Omar, that Israel didn't just wake up one day and decide to invade Lebanon."<BR/><BR/>Rember Michael, that Paestine didn't just wake up one day and decide to hate Israel.<BR/><BR/>Not that I condone terrorism, but the question must be aked... WHY resort to this?Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664056566879773286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152052657971085222006-07-04T15:37:00.000-07:002006-07-04T15:37:00.000-07:00I recall Sharon's incursion into Lebanon and that ...I recall Sharon's incursion into Lebanon and that particular incident. Remember, Omar, that Israel didn't just wake up one day and decide to invade Lebanon. As they are in Gaza, so they were forced to move into Lebanon. War is, quite literally, hell on earth. Innocents get caught in the middle and innocence is lost. As for whether Israel is in violation of Geneva Convention in Gaza, I would ask of you: what would you have Israel do?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06046469207005773680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152026618105848792006-07-04T08:23:00.000-07:002006-07-04T08:23:00.000-07:00Thanks for your post about Matthew Yuckabuck. It ...Thanks for your post about Matthew Yuckabuck. It is perfectly clear to me that Jesus is referring to his own followers as 'the least of these' as the context of those verses makes clear. <BR/><BR/>Blessings<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152023678056666652006-07-04T07:34:00.001-07:002006-07-04T07:34:00.001-07:00you can find the article regarding the Geneva Conv...you can find the article regarding the Geneva Convention here<BR/><BR/>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5145654.stmOmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664056566879773286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1152023648361671082006-07-04T07:34:00.000-07:002006-07-04T07:34:00.000-07:00Michael,I appreciate what your words... however yo...Michael,<BR/>I appreciate what your words... however you did say:<BR/><BR/>"Israel has made numerous attempts to give where it can, and it has been consistently rewarded with more rocket attacks."<BR/><BR/>I would have to strongly disagree. Pick up any basic history book on the subject and you will also find numerous stories of Israel's brutality and terrorism towards citizens. Take for example Sharon's masacre of women and children for no apparent reason. <BR/><BR/>Also, notice that Switzerland, which has the official duty of maintaining the Geneva Convention guidlines, has now said that Israel is in violation of the Geneva Convention right now with their attacks on Gaza. <BR/><BR/>There is no way that Israel has been this benevolent country that Palestinians simply "hate" for no reason other than their Jewish. While not at all condoning their tactics, we are incredibly ignorant if we do not look at some of the root causes of why they choose to do what they do.Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664056566879773286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151974474029895752006-07-03T17:54:00.000-07:002006-07-03T17:54:00.000-07:00Omar,If I said anything that led you or anyone to ...Omar,<BR/><BR/>If I said anything that led you or anyone to believe that all Palestinians, including Christians, are getting what they deserve, then you have my profound and sincere apology. Whether this continuous battle is purely theological in any sense can only be answered by those who are actively fighting. <BR/><BR/>There are attacks and counter-attacks that never end, and it is difficult to tell who shot first. From where I stand, however, Israel has been defending itself against persistent terror attacks. Are these attacks against the "biblical" Israel? I don't know, but what I do know is that Israel goes directly toward the source of the attacks; the terrorists go after primarily civilians where they live, where they shop, and where the children go to school. And the latest headlines indicate that the terrorists are PROMISING to bomb Israeli schools. Now I ask you: are these the acts of a legitimate government with a legitimate beef?<BR/><BR/>Israel has made numerous attempts to give where it can, and it has been consistently rewarded with more rocket attacks. These are terrorists, pure murderers, criminals, who place little value on human life. Is this the heart of the rank-and-file Palestinians? Maybe not, but they get caught in the crossfire because the terrorists hide among the innocents; it's how they operate.<BR/><BR/>Jo Anne is right; there are two levels to be explored but nothing can be done until the terrorists stop these dastardly and cowardly attacks.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06046469207005773680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151972806612214222006-07-03T17:26:00.000-07:002006-07-03T17:26:00.000-07:00Some Christians believe that we are judged by our ...Some Christians believe that we are judged by our response to the nation of Israel because of Matthew 25:31-46, where Jesus says that "whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." The idea is that Jesus was a Jew, and that therefore his "brothers" must be Israel. I am wondering where that particular interpretation of Matthew 25 originally came from. <BR/><BR/>Was it a strictly dispensational teaching (the Gospels belong to a different dispensation, and therefore do not refer to the church, just as Scofield said about the Sermon on the Mount)? <BR/><BR/>Or is it just an overly literal reading that fails to reckon with the fact that Jesus intended to create a new eschatological community in light of the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God? <BR/><BR/>Clearly, Matthew 25 should be read in the context of Jesus declaring that the Kingdom of God is here, and then forming a new community around himself that was not based on ethnicity. This can be seen in the Romans verses that Dr. Witherington refers to, as well as in Mark 3:34-35 where Jesus says that "Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."yuckabuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05286909279733012915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151953869848711942006-07-03T12:11:00.000-07:002006-07-03T12:11:00.000-07:00Wow what a fruitful and interestıng discussion thi...Wow what a fruitful and interestıng discussion this has been. One of the most flawed parts of the discussion ıs the notion that in the eschatological age we are now in fınal judgment wıll be based on how persons respond to Israel (presumably ıncluding modern Zionist Israel). This ıs completely false for two very good reasons; 1) fınal judgment ıs based on how one has responded to Jesus and this ıncludes how Jews have responded to Jesus; 2) the people of God as defined in the NT is Jew and Gentile united in Christ.Until Jews are grafted back into the people of God they are not saved; 3) we are no longer under the old covenant ın any of its administrations. We are under the new covenant and all the promise of God are now given to fulfilled by and fulfilled ın Christ and not elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>Blessings<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151942867474804602006-07-03T09:07:00.000-07:002006-07-03T09:07:00.000-07:00I agree that there is a political response and a C...I agree that there is a political response and a Christian response. I don't have the time, and this is not the place, to debate what I think of all the politics involved here. There is always more to the story...<BR/><BR/>What frustrates me the most is that, from where I stand, a great deal of the Christian response has been abdicated to the politicians.Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664056566879773286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151941707232352982006-07-03T08:48:00.000-07:002006-07-03T08:48:00.000-07:00sorry Omar i should have written: "they don't dese...sorry Omar i should have written: <BR/><BR/>"they don't deserve our <B>*political*</B> support simply because they are Christian". <BR/><BR/>Jo Anne is right : the discussion is on two levels. <BR/><BR/>SalaamCelal Biraderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01242438141738856391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151935132879638962006-07-03T06:58:00.000-07:002006-07-03T06:58:00.000-07:00"They don't deserve our support simply because the..."They don't deserve our support simply because they are Christian."<BR/><BR/>See... this is what I'm talking about. It isn't about "deserving support," it is about forgivness, reconcilliation, and serving our enemies. I think the Scriptures are very clear on this.<BR/><BR/>And it isn't about "Palestinian Christians" or "American Christians," or any specific group. It is about all of humanity, and I think the Scriptures are very clear on what happens if we only love those who love us.<BR/><BR/>Why is this so hard for us to grasp? Why do we hold our enemies to a standard of rules and faith, and we can't even follow the tennents of our faith? How can we expect them to come around and be a certain way if we won't even entertain the idea of living the way Christ called us to live towards them, for them, and for his glory.<BR/><BR/>This is the way of the Cross.... it makes no sense, removes our plays for power, and well... you get the idea. I'm rambling now....Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664056566879773286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151930569191759552006-07-03T05:42:00.000-07:002006-07-03T05:42:00.000-07:00I think the discussion is on two levels. I'm thin...I think the discussion is on two levels. I'm thinking that the verse "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." applies to my thinking. God instituted 'nations' and government for the protection of it's people. I see Israel trying to protect it's people from extermination and it's land from being absorbed into the greater Muslim world. That's one level.<BR/><BR/>I don't think there's a single person who understands Scripture who would deny that Arab Christians are in the Body of Christ and are ONE with Jewish Christians, American Christians, Chinese Christians, etc.. Isn't this the other level of the discussion? The Church has to function within the "world", but we're deceived if we think that the "world" is going to adhere to Christian standards. The Messiah/our Lord isn't ruling and reigning on the Earth yet. (But then I don't want to start a debate about Millennial theology.)Jo Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00654526725671791173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151911728887267452006-07-03T00:28:00.000-07:002006-07-03T00:28:00.000-07:00First of all... in all of your wisdom.... you prob...<I>First of all... in all of your wisdom.... you probably missed the fact that "the destruction of Israel" to the Palestinian does not mean "the death of the Jew" but more the end of Israeli government controlling their lives.</I><BR/><BR/>Omar ... Israel pulled out of Gaza left it to the Palestinians. So why the Qassam rocket attacks into Israel ? <BR/><BR/>Jew hatred springing out of the Islamic worldview is the only explanation. And Arab Christians who go along with this are simply being foolish. They don't deserve out support simply because they are Christian. Check out analysis from Walid Shoebat who is a Christian Zionist and also a Palestinian.Celal Biraderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01242438141738856391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151898767321362992006-07-02T20:52:00.000-07:002006-07-02T20:52:00.000-07:00So let me get this straight: Most of you who are ...So let me get this straight: Most of you who are not Arab and are not Palestinian think you know what all Arabs and all Palestinians think or feel? So you mean to tell me that ALL Arabs and Palestinians want the destruction of Israel? <BR/><BR/>First of all... in all of your wisdom.... you probably missed the fact that "the destruction of Israel" to the Palestinian does not mean "the death of the Jew" but more the end of Israeli government controlling their lives. They have nothing against Jews, just Jews who crush a human existance.<BR/><BR/>And there is plenty of evidence that for all of the terror the Palestinians have thrown at the Israeli people, there has been just as much death and terror thrown at them by Israel. <BR/><BR/>So what does that mean for most of us who read and respond to this blog? Well... I would hope that if we read the Bible it would mean we don't sink down to the level that many of us have. In other words, it means that we proclaim the Cross of Christ, that in the new covenant says it does not matter where you are from or what you have done, the forgivness, grace, and restoration of Jesus is here and now. <BR/><BR/>And it remembers that in the creation story the word for humanity is ADAM, and that Christ came to redeem ADAM... meaning ALL of humanity. That means that whoever ISRAEL is is supposed to be God's people who forgive their enemies, serve the marginalized, and call everyone to the cross.<BR/><BR/>Did you get that? The call of Christ is not to BOMB THE HELL OUT OF ARABS IN PALESTINE but to FIND WAYS TO FORGIVE, LOVE AND SERVE the marginalized in the Gaza Strip.<BR/><BR/>GRRRRRR.... I am so mad at the Church for completely missing the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT CALL TO WHO WE ARE TO BE. And many of you who post here fall in to that catagory. <BR/><BR/>May God forgive us for knowing better but still sinking to the level of terrorists and those who do not know Christ.Omarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664056566879773286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151876087091657342006-07-02T14:34:00.000-07:002006-07-02T14:34:00.000-07:00Palestinians have been attacking with rockets from...Palestinians have been attacking with rockets from Gaza ever since the Israeli pullout. Palestinians are NOT interested in peace only in futile attempts to destroy Israel.Celal Biraderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01242438141738856391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151861970186091792006-07-02T10:39:00.000-07:002006-07-02T10:39:00.000-07:00interesting discussion ... what history seems to s...interesting discussion ... what history seems to show is that walls (Berlin, China) do not work ... so it does seem futile to be building this one in Jerusalem and causing a lot of anguish fo the famly and friends it divides.see-through faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130170262035064482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151861676084067492006-07-02T10:34:00.000-07:002006-07-02T10:34:00.000-07:00American Evangelicals are supporting Israel by and...American Evangelicals are supporting Israel by and large because they believe modern day Israel is prophetic and a failure to support just about everything Israel does would incur a curse from God (based on a faulty reading of Gen. 12:1-3). Also in play is the idea that modern secular Israel is very tied into the end-times, that all nations who oppose are wrong from the get-go, and that indeed modern Israel is still very much God's covenantal people. You rarely, if ever, hear of any Evangelicals talking about Arab Christians who are affected by this mess, and I am glad Witherington is doing so. The bulk of American Evangelicals are more concerned about standing up for unbelieving Israel than they are about Arab Christians who call on the name of Jesus. Of course there is tons of brutality and backwardness in the Arab world and they are hardly innocent doves. But Israel has blood on its hands as well and is not without fault in its actions over the years.Bill Barnwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06519140832310178588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1151846056119982792006-07-02T06:14:00.000-07:002006-07-02T06:14:00.000-07:00I started reading this column last week and I have...I started reading this column last week and I haven't been able to get it our of my thinking. It was disturbing that the government of Israel is being criticized for attempting to protect it's citizens from being murdered by vipers within it's vests. Also that the American Evangelical Christians support Israel against the Arabs simply because they are descendants of Ishmael and for that reason all manner of injustice can be executed against them. That is not true.<BR/><BR/>Thank you, Michael; you expressed my thoughts better than I could.Jo Annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00654526725671791173noreply@blogger.com