tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post114493136136345584..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Did Jesus found a Dynasty--- James Tabor's new bookBen Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-763504613272658092007-12-20T07:10:00.000-08:002007-12-20T07:10:00.000-08:00Critics will argue the unreliability of the gospel...Critics will argue the unreliability of the gospels records, then they are free to pick and choose which scripture suits their theories and which ones they want to leave out. I see the same pattern all the time. Tabor is no different. If you're going to argue the unreliability of the gospels, then any scripture you choose to support your theory may be unreliable. Secondly, I notice Tabor uses the word "Pandera" (found in the Talmud) and "Pantera" interchangeably, while others actually argue that the words are different, and the Hebrew "d" does not correlate with the Greek "t" or "th" as in Pantera or Panthera. Of course, this little tidbit he fails to mention to his audience. But of course, it stands to reason that he must misrepresent the word Pandera, because of his pet Roman soldier's grave in Germany, which is labeled Pantera.Archivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420232182693625051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-44127553994383056202007-03-05T16:39:00.000-08:002007-03-05T16:39:00.000-08:00My first time reading you Ben... very informative!...My first time reading you Ben... very informative! Thanks.<BR/><BR/>Dominic Crossan's name seems to always be present wherever dubious speculations are being aired, as though HE were an <I>un-biased</I> "expert".<BR/>But <B>James Tabor</B> is new to me, and your detailing the Pantera hypothesis was very useful.<BR/><BR/>What of the other so-called "Biblical experts" presented?<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>CrossWiseCrossWisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03823448148654208898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1146065005931344022006-04-26T08:23:00.000-07:002006-04-26T08:23:00.000-07:00Sorry for the dual post, but that interestingly en...Sorry for the dual post, but that interestingly enough segues into a comment I have for what Dr. Tabor said:<BR/><BR/>> I understand Paul as diverging sharply from these founders, John, Jesus, and James, and presenting for the world a dualistic otherworldly vision of Christ and salvation that ultimately becomes “Christianity.”<BR/><BR/>Some scholars, most notably Lawrence Schiffman, believe that Qumran could have been called "Damascus". Given that some of the Qumrannic literature is of a dualistic nature, and that Paul spent some time there (several days: Acts 9.19? I think more likely three years: Gal. 1.16-18) immediately after his conversion, could it be that Paul was exposed to some dualistic theology while there? If he didn't pick up true dualistic theology himself, then perhaps he just picked up some useful "dualistic" phraseology (Rom. 13.12, Eph. 5.8, 1 Thess. 5.5).Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07243696742853452883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1146063556435787212006-04-26T07:59:00.000-07:002006-04-26T07:59:00.000-07:00re: Did Jesus found a dynasty> But secondly Tabor ...re: Did Jesus found a dynasty<BR/><BR/>> But secondly Tabor also misreads Jn. 19.25 which surely refers to four women, not three--- Jesus’ mother, her sister, Mary of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Though early Jews had a limited lexicon for naming children, it is not really plausible that Mary’s parents named two girls in a row Mary, or more correctly Maryam/Maria. <BR/><BR/>I am of the belief that Clopas/Cleopas/Alphaeus were one and the same, and the brother of Josef and that his wife was named Mary. Thus the "sisters" named Mary are actually sisters-in-law.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07243696742853452883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1146062947791620942006-04-26T07:49:00.000-07:002006-04-26T07:49:00.000-07:00re: Did Jesus found a dynasty> But secondly Tabor ...re: Did Jesus found a dynasty<BR/><BR/>> But secondly Tabor also misreads Jn. 19.25 which surely refers to four women, not three--- Jesus’ mother, her sister, Mary of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Though early Jews had a limited lexicon for naming children, it is not really plausible that Mary’s parents named two girls in a row Mary, or more correctly Maryam/Maria. <BR/><BR/>I am of the belief that Clopas/Cleopas/Alphaeus were one and the same, and the brother of Josef and that his wife was named Mary. Thus the "sisters" named Mary are actually sisters-in-law.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07243696742853452883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145474451256037012006-04-19T12:20:00.000-07:002006-04-19T12:20:00.000-07:00I came across your blog quite by accident, and I a...I came across your blog quite by accident, and I am glad I did. You have presented your arguements clearly, concisely and persuasively. Finally, one can have reasonable answers when confronted by non-believers. Thanks again, and keep up the good work.Ashish Gordehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10105222512599129308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145381259066606412006-04-18T10:27:00.000-07:002006-04-18T10:27:00.000-07:00Fascinating--both the original post and all the co...Fascinating--both the original post and all the comments!<BR/><BR/>I'm in a rush, but just had to stop a moment to add that I, too, personally knew a woman who died and came back. She had been in a coma for several days, and then when she died she was deceased for approximately 45 minutes. Her father came into her hospital room, and someone missed catching him to let him know his daughter had expired. He entered the room to see her sheet-covered form. And he prayed...not a well-formed eloquent prayer, as you can imagine. <BR/><BR/>When she returned to her body, she was famished and immediately asked for food. She didn't get it for a while, as you can imagine! She was discharged from the hospital late the next day.<BR/><BR/>This woman was a educator, an intelligent, well-spoken but quiet, humble woman of great credibility. <BR/><BR/>Just recently in the church I pastor, we have seen several miracles. One was verified by a medical doctor.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, thanks for your excellent blog, Ben W.Dorcas (aka SingingOwl)https://www.blogger.com/profile/15626748280614018533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145202321185706242006-04-16T08:45:00.000-07:002006-04-16T08:45:00.000-07:00Ben,I am in the middle of reading Tabor's book. I ...Ben,<BR/><BR/>I am in the middle of reading Tabor's book. I have met him a couple of times as he has spoken to my sunday school class here in Charlotte 2 times in the last 5 years. I actually like Dr. Tabor and believe he offers an excellent archeological overview of Palestine. He gives someone a good base of context with respect to historical geography (Sepphoris) etc...and sheds light on ther relevence of recent discoveries. However, I find his book troubling as it seems to de-bunk the divine nature of Jesus and his miracles. My only way to accept this is purely from a historical sense. I would bet that he would defend his work with the declaration that as a historian he looks for facts not conjecture about the divine. That would be opposed to the theologian perspective. In my view both have value and should part of the same discussion. Dr. Tabor's voice should be heard and studied but put into proper perspective.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00210835876893339272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145127280790550482006-04-15T11:54:00.000-07:002006-04-15T11:54:00.000-07:00Boy am I sorry I came in late to this thread. Pro...Boy am I sorry I came in late to this thread. Professor probably won't even see this.<BR/><BR/>I am astounded by Ben's examples. Astounded. What I want to know of course is what did the dead woman on the phone say!?<BR/><BR/>I have never seen gross physical abnormalities healed. I don't think I've ever seen a physical miracle (though as a kid I saw what I believe to be charlatans come to my church--slight leg lengthening for the healthy, meager sight improvement, 'isn't your vision getting clearer?') I'm almost as skeptical, frankly, as rainsborough, but the Jesus of the gospels overwhelmed my skeptic heart nonetheless. <BR/><BR/>One thing I do believe: the CENTRAL issue in Jesus-life and gospel/NT studies is allowance for or against the miraculous.<BR/><BR/>Ben, I wish I'd see some of the things you have, though you're right, my gosh, if God doesn't open the mind it doesn't matter what we see. And yes, we make conclusions on the evidence we have not matter whether it is complete, mixed together with our prejudices, emotion, psychic wounds, all of it, echoes of Bacon's Four Idols.<BR/><BR/>In ChristTenaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825416797769424875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145067963310353162006-04-14T19:26:00.000-07:002006-04-14T19:26:00.000-07:00Ah no Mr. Rainsborough, I'll not have it, and neit...Ah no Mr. Rainsborough, <BR/><BR/>I'll not have it, and neither should you. The woman in question had her son present in the very room she had the conversation with Mrs. Albright the woman who had been dead for some time. Her son not only was there when the phone rang, his mother told him whom she was speaking to. <BR/><BR/>It is quite impossible for friends of 40 or more years to be mistaken for someone else in a 30 minute phone conversation! And her son was 25 years of age, shy and of absolutely sound mind. I am afraid you need to be skeptical of your own skeptism-- and if you will be, you shall be a much happier man by far. <BR/><BR/>Of course you are right that the man in Siler City did not have a resurrection body. He was like Lazarus, coming back to this body. And frankly when there is no pulse, no heartbeat, no breathing, no e.k.g, no brain waves of any kind for a long period of time--- the man is dead! Sorry-- you can't blame it on faulty equipment. <BR/><BR/>And what exactly would you make of what I saw in a faith healing service where I watched wretchedly deformed persons miraculously healed at Tremont Temple Church in downtown Boston in the late 70s? To see legs lengthened, goiters drop off, enormous deformities healed on the spot--- even the most skeptical would have to be Scrooge indeed to deny it happened. They would have to be willfully closing their eyes!<BR/><BR/>So you must really rethink your posture in this matter--- you do not KNOW that we live in a closed materialistic system at all. You just believe we do--- in other words this is faith postulate based on what you take to be sufficient evidence. <BR/><BR/>In other words, your posture is no different from mine. Its just my evidence differs from yours. <BR/><BR/>Think on these things.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145050920664688782006-04-14T14:42:00.000-07:002006-04-14T14:42:00.000-07:00Wow Ranisbrough "we've never seen x, y, z, miracle...Wow Ranisbrough "we've never seen x, y, z, miracles." <BR/><BR/>Well, I am calling your bluff. Many of us have seen real miracles-- miracles of healing, miracles of paranormal phenomena, and yes I've run into someone who was genuinely raised from the dead in Siler City North Carolina-- flat e.k.g., dead for a good while, the whole shmeer. <BR/><BR/>I quite agree that all such claims should be carefully scrutinized and you are of course right that there are plenty of gullible people out there. This doesn't mean miracles do not happen. And here's the problem for your point of view. Jesus warned us that believing is what leads to seeing and understanding miracles, not necessarily the other way around. <BR/><BR/>I should tell you someday about the phone call my perfectly sane neighbor received from her dead best friend, in the presence of witnesses (woman had been confirmed dead a couple of hours before the phone call in Asheboro hospital). It freaked her smooth and I had to pick up the pieces.<BR/><BR/>Happy Easter--- and raise your expectations!<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145029316724520062006-04-14T08:41:00.000-07:002006-04-14T08:41:00.000-07:00Well of course Oded Golan is on trial for selling ...Well of course Oded Golan is on trial for selling antiquities as well as for alleged forgery. So the trial must run its course, and afterwards we hope to do the DNA testing on the bone fragments. If there is match with the DNA from the blood on the Shroud--- then we will really be talking a big story.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1145013321638676992006-04-14T04:15:00.000-07:002006-04-14T04:15:00.000-07:00Hi Traditionalist:Boy have you been listening to a...Hi Traditionalist:<BR/><BR/>Boy have you been listening to a lot of propaganda! The IAA repot was debunked a long time ago by the leading epigraphers in the world. <BR/><BR/>Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article is hopelessly out of touch. See the newest issue of BAR where Andre Lemaire points out that even members of the IAA like Ada Yardeni have come out and repudiated the IAA report. <BR/><BR/>In other words on paleographical grounds, epigraphical grounds, historical grounds--- every single bit of the evidence we have points to the authenticity of the James box. <BR/><BR/>Two important points to add-- the studies done at the Toronto museum when the box was there validated all the claims-- if the inscription was either modern or had had patina added in modernity it would have shown up under the ultra violet light test--- it did not. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, there are microscopic cracks that go through the letters in both halves of the inscription which are very ancient indeed. If the inscription had even been partially modern, the cracks would stop at the top of a letter and then continue below the letter--- but these cracks go through the letters. Geologists are perfectly clear about how long it took for these cracks to form. <BR/><BR/>And now in the latest issue of BAR we have a clear explanation as to why this ossuary is more weathered on one side than the other--- one side was more exposed than the other. <BR/><BR/>One of the lessons we should learn from this whole debacle is this-- Do not believe any internet reports you read from: 1) anonymous sources who will not footnote the author and source of their evidence; 2) people talking on subjects that are not related at all to their own field of expertise. The same applies to the Shroud of Turin which needs a new carbon dating, since they dated a scorched piece of patch that was added to the cloth in the Middle Ages-- not the original cloth with image on it.<BR/><BR/>Happy Easter, and the James box is likely to rise again,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1144990040364893042006-04-13T21:47:00.000-07:002006-04-13T21:47:00.000-07:00Professor,I don't think you need my encouragement,...Professor,<BR/><BR/>I don't think you need my encouragement, but I'm offering it anyway: please continue. I'm reading your Quest book now and am impressed with it just as I am impressed with this article. In Quest, you put the nail in the Jesus Seminar coffin quite concisely. Frankly, better than Brown at the end of his NT intro. <BR/><BR/>What you say about miracles here has me still thinking.Tenaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05825416797769424875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1144968276102999932006-04-13T15:44:00.000-07:002006-04-13T15:44:00.000-07:00Hi Camassia:Indeed it is incorrect--- Baptist is a...Hi Camassia:<BR/><BR/>Indeed it is incorrect--- Baptist is a denomination, baptizer is an activity.<BR/><BR/>And to Terry yes, its like golding the lilly,<BR/><BR/>BenBen Witheringtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1144965038525198322006-04-13T14:50:00.000-07:002006-04-13T14:50:00.000-07:00To raise a much less important subject, why do sch...To raise a much less important subject, why do scholars such as yourself use "John the Baptizer" instead of the conventional "John the Baptist"? Is there something incorrect about "baptist"?Camassiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09183087564923218343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1144946785399337722006-04-13T09:46:00.000-07:002006-04-13T09:46:00.000-07:00Ben,Thank you for that. We are blessed indeed to h...Ben,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for that. We are blessed indeed to have someone like you to confront these books. Now we don't have to read them. I particularly liked the reference to the over-egged pudding. Is this similar to the gilded lily?Terry Hamblinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06346629921055055879noreply@blogger.com