tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post113374481014685237..comments2024-03-10T10:54:59.776-07:00Comments on Ben Witherington: Churches Closed on Christmas?Ben Witheringtonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017701050859255865noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1166560759286137322006-12-19T12:39:00.000-08:002006-12-19T12:39:00.000-08:00I think it is great that churches close for christ...I think it is great that churches close for christmas. What people fail to understand is that the church cannot run with out people. Church staff and volunteers are usually overworked. What is so wrong with them being with their families like the rest of us? I pray that they have a blessed relaxing christmas.jchaifleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11729926705441267592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1135570897115863422005-12-25T20:21:00.000-08:002005-12-25T20:21:00.000-08:00Ben, you've got a lot of good points, but I think ...Ben, you've got a lot of good points, but I think the discussion is getting a bit misaligned. I posted on it, and would like your input. If you feel I'm painting you unfairly, I'll be glad to discuss it with you and make corrections. Merry Christmas.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://alifeunfettered.blogspot.com/2005/12/merry-christmas-yes-were-closed.html" REL="nofollow">Aarron Pina</A>Aarron & Cristine Pinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06575649841378389704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1135487724235667602005-12-24T21:15:00.000-08:002005-12-24T21:15:00.000-08:00Hello Ben,I guess since Christmas falls on a Sunda...Hello Ben,<BR/>I guess since Christmas falls on a Sunday it does seem weird not to have church on Sunday. I attend Willow Creek and I went to the service in Barrington on Tuesday night and my home church on the North Shore on Thursday night. I guess that I'm not locked in to attend on Sunday because I attended during the week. Not sure what the big deal is about not being a Sunday service. Most people I know make it a huge tradition to go to the 11pm service on Christmas Eve. But I can understand the criticism from people who do not attend. Hope you had a nice Christmas eve.everafterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06444053913966734273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1135392173550245002005-12-23T18:42:00.000-08:002005-12-23T18:42:00.000-08:00I agree that Church should never be closed on any ...I agree that Church should never be closed on any Sunday because of the resurrection. I also agree that worship is best done when a community of believers gather together to offer praise to our Lord, not when we sit around a tree and open up presents.<BR/><BR/>I have two children, 6 and 4 and they would deeply saddened if we failed to go to church, even though it is Christmas. Every Sunday is a holiday to them, as I believe it should be, so this week it is two holidays in one.<BR/><BR/>One last thing, if we do hold to the Church's traditional recognition of Christmas as Dec 25, it should also be noted that Christmas is a season and not simply a day. It starts the 25th and goes through the Epiphany on January 6. So as to when can I celebrate with my family, well, even the government has given an extra day for Christmas because it falls on Sunday, so do the family thing on the 26th. That's why they give the day off!Pastor Vaughanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263692753524755572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1135358509683464002005-12-23T09:21:00.000-08:002005-12-23T09:21:00.000-08:00We have been so burdened during this Christmas sea...We have been so burdened during this Christmas season to the closing of the church on Christmas Sunday simply because it falls on Christmas. It is no secret that Christmas is, hands down, the most depressing time of year for so many lonely people. People that would never darken the church doors often do so during Christmas time and they would be much more apt to desire a place of refuge on Christmas day itself. As I recall, the last Christmas that fell on a Sunday, we had a simple Christmas day family service and the church was packed. I remember being surprised at how many turned out for it and I would imagine that there was at least one person there visiting that needed a touch from God that day. We, as Christians, need to remember that it costs to serve Christ and on the day that is typically declared to be the day of the highest percentage of suicides in our society, we need to be willing to "sacrifice" family time to "be there" for those in need. Please, let's never close our doors again!<BR/> <BR/>I don't believe you have to be in church to worship and those with young children or other issues may choose to worship at home, but what about that person that sits in the 3rd chair? The one that might stumble in on Christmas, but NOT on any other day, the one lost sheep -- that's the ONE that Jesus cares about and so should we.ATShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02855125022009404718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1135185086106979182005-12-21T09:11:00.000-08:002005-12-21T09:11:00.000-08:00So group, if Willow or any church did a service th...So group, if Willow or any church did a service that began or ended at 12:01 Sunday, would it qualify for the saving "Sunday Christmas" track?Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08263643320935865016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134996842073004952005-12-19T04:54:00.000-08:002005-12-19T04:54:00.000-08:00Interestingly Josh Harris posted this on his blog ...Interestingly Josh Harris posted this on his blog yesterday...<BR/><BR/>""This year because Christmas morning falls on a Sunday I made the decision to replace our normal Sunday meeting with two Christmas Eve services. Since then I’ve come to believe that this was the wrong decision, informed by the wrong priorities." (<A HREF="http://joshharrisblogson.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">read more</A>)<BR/><BR/>Good to see honesty from him.<BR/><BR/>Also worthing noting that in my particular circle of British reformed evangelicalism, any church that doesn't have TWO different services on Christmas day would be seen as selling its soul to the world. ;-)Mark Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03253032477968218422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134606526542030812005-12-14T16:28:00.000-08:002005-12-14T16:28:00.000-08:00And to Craig - If you have a bunch of family toget...And to Craig - If you have a bunch of family together at Christmas - it's really no big deal for those people who want to go to church to go - and those who don't want to go to skip it. In my family - my in-laws never wanted to go to church - nor did I or my husband - but other siblings/nieces/nephews and inlaws did. So they went. In the morning. For about an hour. No big deal unless someone wants to get into an argument about it. Robynrobynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15402951155258560637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134605790224771242005-12-14T16:16:00.000-08:002005-12-14T16:16:00.000-08:00Sosad - I have a mixed marriage. One of my nieces...Sosad - I have a mixed marriage. One of my nieces went to a Baptist seminary - and she is married to a Baptist preacher. I think they would have sooner walked over hot coals than not be at their church to conduct services at Christmas. Even if it meant coming to family gatherings late - or leaving early - or not coming at all. My nephew-in-law is now back in school for an advanced theological degree - so he doesn't have a congregation.<BR/><BR/>And - when we went to visit my husband's family for Christmas - the first order of the day was going to church for those who cared to attend (and most did attend my sister-in-law's church - even though they belonged to different denominations at home - although I did not).<BR/><BR/>I understand that there is more than a fair amount of controversy in Christianity about the concepts of being "saved by grace" and "saved by works" (and I assume that going to Church - among lots of other activities - falls into the latter category). On my part - I do not think that it is very good for society to have a huge number of people who believe that no matter what one does on earth - one can be saved simply by thinking certain thoughts (or saying certain words). Perhaps that is why we see so many cases of allegedly religious people doing pretty bad things. I will note that in terms of the thoughts/deeds debate - Judaism is much more a religion of deeds than thoughts. Robynrobynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15402951155258560637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134577394025310202005-12-14T08:23:00.000-08:002005-12-14T08:23:00.000-08:00As a somewhat "confused" evangelical Christian, I ...As a somewhat "confused" evangelical Christian, I often find myself in an odd place. I am currently employed at a conservative Episcopal church, but trace my roots back to the Assemblies of God through Southern Baptist and Presbyterian churches.<BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, I agree with those who view this trend (which really isn't all that recent, contrary to what some folks would like to think) with sadness and worry. It <I>is</I> a problem in that it does reflect conforming to the culture rather than transforming the culture and it highlights the fact that Christ is often not of the utmost importance; convenience and personal "d'ruthers" are often more important.<BR/><BR/>However, I don't think that one can make a reasonable argument that not meeting on Christmas Sunday is a violation of practices laid out in scripture. Dr. Witherington, you cited "where two or three are gathered in my name," how can you see a biological family gathering as less significant than the local congregation? If Christ is glorified, then all has been fulfilled. Indeed, such a gathering might more accurately reflect the early church than meeting in a "church" building! Furthermore, if widows, orphans, and the poor are invited to join with the family (which will certainly be the case in my home on Christmas), then it could well more accurately reflect the Lord's Supper and the celebration of the church than the rituals of congregational worship.<BR/><BR/>I do regret that my AG home church will not have services on Christmas - it does indicate an worrisome conformance to culture and placing Jesus behind other things. However, I don't view this as dangerous to Biblical practice beyond how it reflects on motives. It isn't forsaking the gathering of the assembly necessarily and to believe that it does might point to an dangerous understanding of who and what the Church really is.<BR/><BR/>May the Peace of Christ be always with you,<BR/><BR/>Sam LufiSam Lufihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12541594332811244766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134448191786187552005-12-12T20:29:00.000-08:002005-12-12T20:29:00.000-08:00I was looking at this issue a bit - and ran across...I was looking at this issue a bit - and ran across this blog. I'm Jewish. And it's simply inconceivable to me that a place of worship would cancel services on a major holiday because the holiday fell on an inconvenient day. Mind you - services on major Jewish holidays - even in Reform (the least observant) synagogues are lengthy - they last the better part of a day. And you're telling me that quote/unquote "religious Christians" can't be bothered to attend church for an hour or so on Christmas? That the churches can't be bothered even to open their doors? And these are the same people who are spending all their time filing lawsuits to have Nativity scenes in shopping malls? There is something terribly wrong with this scenario. And it is not something that leads an outsider like me to respect your religion.robynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15402951155258560637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134409210491266302005-12-12T09:40:00.000-08:002005-12-12T09:40:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784699630284231626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134400836769012722005-12-12T07:20:00.000-08:002005-12-12T07:20:00.000-08:00"when I used to work for a church I hated Christma..."when I used to work for a church I hated Christmas for the huge amount of tension that I had to go through for the season." - I have to say I agree with that spirit, even though I realize how much is wrong with it. <BR/><BR/>I've been reluctant to attend church at all anyway, in part because of the production aspects of a megachurch I used to attend, and in part because I felt that if I didn't do all of the same things and have all of the same perspectives as everyone else, I didn't really fit in. <BR/><BR/>I've attended a smaller church more recently, which was nice, and I've attended an older historic church, which was also nice, but in some cases, the production of Christmas drowns the meaning of the celebration. <BR/><BR/>The best service I've attended in over 2 years was the one at the historic church a couple of Sundays ago - it was a musical production of Handel's Messiah, and more than anything I've ever heard, it demonstrated the true meaning of Christmas. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the reason people are so willing to abandon coming together for services on Christmas is because there is so little focus on what Christmas is all about, despite the representations to the contrary. It's all about the songs, or the message, or a host of other things. <BR/><BR/>When Jesus walked on this earth, people were drawn to Him. Maybe the reason so many people are willing to forsake church on Christmas is because they haven't seen evidence of Jesus' presence in their local body..... <BR/><BR/>Just a thought.lawyerchikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04380575753051472156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134356556720575632005-12-11T19:02:00.000-08:002005-12-11T19:02:00.000-08:00traditionally, the Church has had fellowship on Su...<I>traditionally</I>, the Church has had fellowship on Sundays and also daily, UNLIKE us today who only have fellowship Sundays and some also on Tuesday/Wednesday<BR/><I>biblically</I>, the Church has not been commanded to have fellowship on Sunday<BR/><BR/>the early church was concerned with having fellowship constantly throughout the week, they were not so concerned with having church on one particular day; for them it was a matter of preference to enjoy fellowship with one another on Sunday to recognize the risen Lord, but they went above and beyond that and had more fellowship throughout the week<BR/><BR/>in retrospect, this is a minor issue in which Christians and the Church has the right to practice liberty in having the church building open or closed on Christmas Sunday. I don't think we should major in the minors. What is important--major, if you will--is a church to provide a place for fellowship at some time in that week because it functions to serve the body of Christ and to the community. At the least, if not on Sunday, then at some point during that week there should be some fellowship services made available for the congregation and community.<BR/><BR/>That's just my opinion.<BR/><BR/>~James Gregory<BR/><A>http://jamesgregory.blogspot.com</A>James Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134353331255367532005-12-11T18:08:00.000-08:002005-12-11T18:08:00.000-08:00One point I didn't see during my rapid skim of the...One point I didn't see during my rapid skim of the above 85 (!) comments:<BR/><BR/>When I visited Willow-Creek, I was shocked to learn that their "service for Christians" was NOT Sunday morning- it was on Tuesday and Wednesday nights! (In fact Dr. Joseph Stowell was preaching that week.) <BR/><BR/>The Sunday morning service was expressly intended for Christians to bring their unsaved friends to, as it was a real "seeker targeted service."<BR/><BR/>In essence, Willow Creek at least has only canceled their "outreach service." The services for Christians are not canceled.<BR/><BR/>(Not taking a side here yet- Someone made the excellent point that Christmas is the most likely day of the year for a non-Christian to attend church! Also, this may only apply to Willow Creek, not Southland Christian.)yuckabuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05286909279733012915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134279987063749692005-12-10T21:46:00.000-08:002005-12-10T21:46:00.000-08:00Makes one believe that some Churches are only in i...Makes one believe that some Churches are only in it for the money!!! Doesn't help<BR/>Christian PR at all! I'm sure other religions are laughing especially the Muslims. <BR/>Can you imagine Masques being closed because Ramadan fell on Saturday? Hypocrites? The reason for the season certainly not domesticated here! What better appropriate time to worship than on Jesus birthday? How long does it take to open presents anyway? Family? All Sunday's are for families. I don't think 1 hour of worship would interfere with family? This isn't the 1st time <BR/>Christmas has fallen on Sunday. But, it is the first time I've heard of closing church<BR/>on Christmas Sunday! Shows you where some Christians self-centered hearts are really at.<BR/>Which leads me to the finial question of any church: WWJD? <BR/><BR/>What Church would Jesus attend?<BR/><BR/>My Church is open!!Bobby Sowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17004416761888043708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134272160843000972005-12-10T19:36:00.000-08:002005-12-10T19:36:00.000-08:00I recently read an editorial in an evangelical mag...I recently read an editorial in an evangelical magazine appealing to that denomination to re-institute Sunday school (SS). Can you believe it? Their arguments for letting SS go the way of the dinosaur were legion: too costly, too pedantic, too few teachers . . ..<BR/><BR/>Now we close churches on Christmas day.<BR/><BR/>What's next? Place the Communion juice and wafers on a pew in front of the church and invite anyone who might be interested in taking "communion" to come forward?<BR/><BR/>BTW, I've been in a church that did that.<BR/><BR/>rich<BR/>myjourneytorome.blogspot.comrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15044555955940364411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134271955230204672005-12-10T19:32:00.000-08:002005-12-10T19:32:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15044555955940364411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134243847820639322005-12-10T11:44:00.000-08:002005-12-10T11:44:00.000-08:00Grady,I think this blog has done some good. Many ...Grady,<BR/><BR/>I think this blog has done some good. Many Christians can't even argue for what they believe. In just one practical helpful example of this blog, it has provided the opportunity to learn and grow in the knowledge of our faith regarding particular issue--Christmas, the resurrection, and community worship.<BR/><BR/>This has been a healthy on-going discussion in my opinion.James Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134242434087693732005-12-10T11:20:00.000-08:002005-12-10T11:20:00.000-08:00Quote:Cindyj said...This year we get to celebrate ...Quote:<BR/>Cindyj said...<BR/><I>This year we get to celebrate the incarnation and the resurrection on the same day!</I><BR/><BR/>How true!<BR/><BR/>I understand that the issue here is not having church on Sunday simply because Christmas falls on this celebration day.<BR/><BR/>My point is, however, that it is ok to decide not to have church on this Christmas Sunday. This is my opinion, of course, yet I plan on going to both a Christmas Eve service at 11pm and a Christmas Day service at 11am. While I think there is an awesome opportunity to observe both the resurrection and the incarnation this year at the same time on the same day, I do not think it is absolutely vital that every church have service because traditionally a family can have fellowship in their own home even on Christmas day, making it a family service so to speak. Although the day itself is <I>significant</I> being that it is the Lord's day as well as the day we recognize Christ's incarnation, it is still a matter of <I>preference</I> and <I>availability</I>. I say this because Sunday has significance traditionally in the church as the most <I>common</I> day for Christians to come together and celebrate Christ. But it is not the only day. Many people get together on Saturday nights (I am talking Evangelicals here) instead of Sunday because their jobs do not permit them the time to go to celebrate on Sunday. This is just an example, but it serves to show that one does not necessarily have to celebrate on Sunday itself in order to partake in fellowship and communal worship. Therefore, I see no reason why a church cannot cancel Christmas Sunday so that they can have their family time in celebration of Christ. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I hope all of you, however, will take advantage of the wonderful opportunity this year of having communal worship and fellowship on Christmas Sunday!James Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134240879585631132005-12-10T10:54:00.000-08:002005-12-10T10:54:00.000-08:00Quote:Phil Dillon, Prairie Apologist said...I supp...Quote:<BR/>Phil Dillon, Prairie Apologist said...<BR/><I>I suppose if it can be argued that celebrating Jesus' birth on a Sunday could be in the future extended to Easter as well. It always comes on a Sunday, albeit a different Sunday every year. Why not do away with it in favor of being with familes for the Easter holiday? That's the thread of the argument I'm hearing for those who say the doesn't matter. It's where their argument logically goes. Given time it could take us all to the place where Jesus, his birth, life, death, resurrection, and second coming would have to give way to more important things, like family.</I><BR/><BR/>I disagree with one thing here:<BR/><BR/>We just happen to have Christ's recognized day for his birth fall on Sunday, our celebration day, this year. This is different from Easter Sunday which has been celebrated every Sunday for many centuries in church tradition. Logically, it would not be possible to take away an Easter service because traditionally there has constantly been services on Easter Sunday. <BR/><BR/>And I find some interesting words at the end of the quote: "Given time it could take us all to the place where Jesus, his birth, life, death, resurrection, and second coming would have to give way to more important things, like family." <BR/><BR/>These are important words--alarming words--for Christ said that he came to disrupt the family. The family, although important, needs to be subject to Christ as number one in our lives.James Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134239830791315002005-12-10T10:37:00.000-08:002005-12-10T10:37:00.000-08:00Quote: Phil Dillon, Prairie Apologist said... I ca...Quote: <BR/>Phil Dillon, Prairie Apologist said... <BR/><I>I can't find myself saying that the incarnation is only "important." It is SPECIAL, UNIQUE. God came in the flesh! The incarnation is the first in many links God has made to humanity. It's part of the whole story and it's more than just "important." It's even included in the Apostles' Creed. Without it we wouldn't have a resurrection to celebrate.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree with you that the incarnation is more than important; it is an integral part of our faith. But the incarnation is not what empowers us as believers. It is only because Christ was raised that we can be saved. If that did not happen, salvation would not be possible, regardless if Jesus came to the earth or not. This was my point. Not that the incarnation isn't important, because I believe it is, and I love taking the time to recognize God's coming in human form through celebrating at Christmas.James Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134231132485566552005-12-10T08:12:00.000-08:002005-12-10T08:12:00.000-08:00Good words Ben. A Southland member at Asbury said...Good words Ben. A Southland member at Asbury said he thought it odd for the paper's article to say that no church member objected when in fact no church member knew about the decision until the article ran! -- Nathan WilsonNATHAN D WILSONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14792866131114687443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134224037695079512005-12-10T06:13:00.000-08:002005-12-10T06:13:00.000-08:00I can't find myself saying that the incarnation is...I can't find myself saying that the incarnation is only "important." It is SPECIAL, UNIQUE. God came in the flesh! The incarnation is the first in many links God has made to humanity. It's part of the whole story and it's more than just "important." It's even included in the Apostles' Creed. Without it we wouldn't have a resurrection to celebrate. <BR/><BR/>I suppose if it can be argued that celebrating Jesus' birth on a Sunday could be in the future extended to Easter as well. It always comes on a Sunday, albeit a different Sunday every year. Why not do away with it in favor of being with familes for the Easter holiday? That's the thread of the argument I'm hearing for those who say the doesn't matter. It's where their argument logically goes. Given time it could take us all to the place where Jesus, his birth, life, death, resurrection, and second coming would have to give way to more important things, like family.<BR/><BR/>The Kansas City media picked up on what I think is the big problem. They noted that megachurches said that Christmas services were cancelled because the holiday is all about family. I suspect that they may have spoken a bit out of turn, but the point is that the impression is now out there - Christmas isn't about the birth of Jesus, it's all about family. <BR/><BR/>The megachurhes say that their staffs have worked hard all year and deserve the time off. I have no doubt that they have worked hard, perhaps too hard. But, if they would spend less time doing regression analysis, customer feedback surveys, marketing, media promotional work, budget and strategy meetings, etc. they might stop and celebrate it.Phil Dillon, Prairie Apologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00933117233625601141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11840313.post-1134174256417025712005-12-09T16:24:00.000-08:002005-12-09T16:24:00.000-08:00Pastor Mike:Well said.I was not trying to stir up ...Pastor Mike:<BR/><BR/>Well said.<BR/><BR/>I was not trying to stir up dissension.<BR/><BR/>I was making a point that it is the observed birthday, not the true birthday, and we need not be so caught up in upholding that one particular day as Christ's birthday.<BR/><BR/>What we do need to uphold is that we observe Christ's coming as a human at some point, whether it be one time a year or many times a year.<BR/><BR/>I like your use of kindergarten birthdays. Thanks for your input.<BR/><BR/>~James GregoryJames Gregoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14462353867826866759noreply@blogger.com